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Turn decision, I think? I'm ahead
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fep
53o


Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 3106

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Turn decision, I think? I'm ahead Reply with quote

Villian after 12 hands is 60/40 and so far seems aggresive after the flop

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with Jack of Hearts Jack of Diamonds
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: Ace of Diamonds King of Spades 2 of Hearts (9.5SB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 6 of Clubs (6.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero ?
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toronexti
53o


Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 4716

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my usual line here when I think I'm ahead is to check turn and call river
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geormiet
2K Club


Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 2511
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey fep,

Don't like it. If you're ahead, which is very unlikely the best idea is to call call call. Do you want him to fold a smaller pair?

I fold the flop, even against a very agro guy.
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germany



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 486

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fep, why are sure you are ahead ?

If you act on your read accurately , then tur bet , even call when villian raise you in turn.

Normally , I starting calling down from flop to river, after villian cap preflop
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fep
53o


Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 3106

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After I bet the turn and he folded I said to myself, "doh".

Acted without thinking, and like Geo said I don't want my opponent to fold anything that he would fold here. My turn bet was dumb.

I raised the flop for information and was planning on folding to a reraise. Vs. this opponent (albeit small sample) I figured he'd reraise if ahead.

I think vs a 40% VPIP the best play was to call the flop, call the turn, call the river. Against a 40% I must be ahead often enough to make this correct but if ahead I want him to make the mistake of continueing to bet.


Last edited by fep on Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bugsbunny
Wascally


Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 7970
Location: Drinking Carrot juice

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the flop it's either raise or fold, I can make arguments in either direction, and will do both at times. In this case I don't mind a raise myself, even if I show the hand down and lose it shows that you can't just run me over with scare cards. If he was tighter then this would be a fold, in most cases (but not always). And even against an aggro I'll fold some of the time, the mix is just different - I'll play back against the aggro more often than against the tighter player. I would be a bit happier if there was only 1 overcard though. Since there's 2 that normally leans me more in the direction of folding (especially with a tighter player, but even with aggro's).

On the turn he checks, that's a good thing. You should check behind. If you bet and he c/r you have to fold. You can get to showdown for the same price. You're either way ahead or way behind here. If you're way behind you may check and still catch a miracle J, which will usually be enough to save you (but not always)
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Bugsbunny
Wascally


Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 7970
Location: Drinking Carrot juice

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call, call, call is another option here, and I will do that as well. It really depends on opp on whether I prefer a 3 bet or a call down (assuming I don't fold), but in general I don't like calling down here - although I'm not sure why. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that both an A and a K are out there.
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Fumseck
Cannuque


Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3456
Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geormiet wrote:
hey fep,

Don't like it. If you're ahead, which is very unlikely the best idea is to call call call. Do you want him to fold a smaller pair?

I fold the flop, even against a very agro guy.


Geo and Al,

2 questions:

If you follow this line, do you raise the river if another blank comes?

If bandit checks the river, do you bet it?
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germany



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 486

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fep wrote:
After I bet the turn and he folded I said to myself, "doh".

Acted without thinking, and like Geo said I don't want my opponent to fold anything that he would fold here. My turn bet was dumb.

I raised the flop for information and was planning on folding to a reraise. Vs. this opponent (albeit small sample) I figured he'd reraise if ahead.

I think vs a 40% VPIP the best play was to call the flop, call the turn, call the river. Against a 40% I must be ahead often enough to make this correct but if ahead I want him to make the mistake of continueing to bet.

I don't think your turm bet was problematic, do u want to see the chance the river comes J and he hold 10q.

If he is behind, he won't bet into u anyway, you turn bet is wise.
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Bugsbunny
Wascally


Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 7970
Location: Drinking Carrot juice

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
f he is behind, he won't bet into u anyway, you turn bet is wise.


That's not true. In a lot of cases a turn check here will induce a river bluff, where he'll fold to a turn bet. Not always, but more often than you may think.
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germany



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 486

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks bug reminder , but to be honest, i think the player is more inclined NOT to bet `
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geormiet
2K Club


Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 2511
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still confused why we are calling the flop. 12 hands is no sample size at all, and like I said, even against a lag a flop fold is good.
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Wynton
Sharkapalooza 2 MVP


Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 5575
Location: NY

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geormiet wrote:
I'm still confused why we are calling the flop. 12 hands is no sample size at all, and like I said, even against a lag a flop fold is good.


I'm surprised you are so deficient at interpreting stats.

After 3 hands, I can usually tell whether a player likes to raise with any Ace.
After 6 hands, I can tell whether he takes the way ahead/way behind line.
After 9 hands, I know whether he is willing to 3-bet draws on the flop.
And after 12 hands, I basically know everything, including his favorite tv shows.
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Bugsbunny
Wascally


Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 7970
Location: Drinking Carrot juice

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12 hands is a small sample size. 12 hands running at 60/40 I begin making some tentative conclusions (like potential maniac), especially if a hand or2 has gone to showdown showing me something flaky.
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WinAgain35



Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 43
Location: Denver

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen my OWN stats in 12 hands vary from 50/40 or 35/20 to 10/5 or 0/0
12 hands usually isn't enough to know too much about a player. And I've been fooled into thinking a player is a LAG after 20 or so hands, only to find out they're TAG after 200 hands. Just my observation.
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