Tournaments to Cash games

[Radford]

I'VE ALSO POSTED THIS IN THE ASK AN EXPERT SECTION. I NOW REALISE IT MAY GET MORE RESPONSES IN THIS SECTION.

Hello.

I'm mainly a tournament player on the Internet. I have played cash games in the past, but i much rather prefer tournaments. Mainly because of the huge prize pools and i've just gotten so used to them with the increasing blind structure and so on. Whenever i enter a cash game though, i struggle. I have no idea why though. I've noticed that my continuation bets are getting called much more frequently, and that the general play just seems a little more on the loose side. Maybe i'm just that used to playing tournaments, that i play a cash game like a tournament.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like i'm an awful player (Well, no player's going to say that are they? hehe) I have had some decent cashes in the past playing tournaments and i consider myself a decent player at playing tournaments. But for some strange reason whenever i sit down at a cash game, i do badly. I just don't think i take note of the transition from tournaments to cash games and maybe i start playing it like a tournament, which obviously is totally wrong.

I'm going to start playing cash games more often. Maybe even stopping playing tournaments for a couple of months and focus on cash games just to vary things around.

What do you suggest in making changes to my game? How should i treat the two differently? There are also things that i would do in tournamrnts that I think should be avoided in cash games. In tournaments, i like to be aggressive and start raising with hands from LP when first-in. Maybe suited connectors or high cards. If i get called, throw a continuation bet out there. If called, re-evaluate. Would this apply to cash games too? I'm not quite sure if this type of aggression is warranted in cash games. Obviously the blinds dont start to get up. Your never ever short stacked. So why get involved with these types of hands? But in tournaments i suppose you have to do this to build up your stack early on (well i like to anyway)

I think you get the point. Thanks, Chris.

[bagheera]

I've run into the same problems, and kinda focus on a couple areas while I try to shore up my weaknesses there... namely...

#1. Its easier to bully in a tourney, as everyone wants to hang onto their place a little longer, so even if they feel they have top hand, they may lay down and lose a couple chips instead of sacrificing position. in a cash game they need not worry about their position, if you have top hand its pretty much always worth staying in against chasers.

#2. bad beats hurt less in tourneys. provided you didnt get cleaned out entirely, you'll still be there to get your chips back from the idiot that went all in preflop with 2-4 against your aces... but in a cash game they will generally take your money and run... leaving you with the task of finding other players to recover your chips from.

#3. players are more attached to their money in cash games. in tourneys their money is already "gone", so it gives the illusion of being less of a factor. you'd think that this would make it easier to play, but i've noticed that it squeezes weaker players down to lower tables to the point where you face stiffer opposition for a reward to a tournament.

[Taardvark]

When I started out, I played almost exclusively in tournaments for a long time before playing ring games.

I struggled for a while. In ring games, implied odds plays a much bigger role than in tournaments (at least beyond the early stages when the blinds are small in relation to stacks). In a ring game, you are looking for hands to stack your opponent (sets, etc.). You can wait a long time to get there and can reload if necessary. I am much more concerned about winning money than I am about winning hands. I've had sessions where I won two or three hands and doubled my buy in. I'm not looking to get into coin flips in a cash game. I am looking to find situations where my opponents are willing to put their money in bad. I know there are some out there that indicate that you should push any edge you have but this has always served me well.

In a tournament, I am looking to steadily increase my chip stack and stay ahead of the rising blinds. Here I am definitely looking to win pots. I don't have the luxury of waiting around for a big score. I am much more willing to push the small edges in tournaments and getting into coin flips is nearly impossible if you hope to get deep. This requires me to not only play more hands than I would in a ring game, but I have to play those hands more aggressively.

To me, the role of implied odds and hand selection are the biggest differences between ring and tournaments.

[Scott Aigner, M.D.]

Taardvark is spot on about several significant differences between tournaments and ring games. Bagheera also has some excellent points about the fixed relative cost of a tournament vs. ring game play. The main concepts/factors and differences between the two are:

1. suited connectors and small pocket pairs have more value in the ring games than in the tournaments (once you get beyond the early levels where 100 BB stacks are no longer the norm). In tournaments the big Ace hands are often played very aggressively and will often be a push preflop or possibly an all in on the flop situation.

2. you do not want (or need to) push small edges in a ring game setting whereas in a tournament the stack to blind ratio forces you to gamble more. Small edges is also very important in limit hold em games as well. Continuation bets are oftyen less of a factor in the ring game. Pot control will often be much more important in the ring game structure as well, especially when there are multiple large stacks at the table.

3. Post flop play is much more important in the ring game than in a tournament (once again this is after the earlier levels when the stack to blind ratio is significantly smaller).

4. Preflop play and pushing with 15-20 BB is a standard play in tournaments whereas playing bigger stacks and playing the implied odds factor is much more important in the ring game.

5. Because ring games do not have a time factor or steadily decreasing stack sizes compared to the blinds a player can be very patient in a ring game setting without losing more than the smallish blinds. There are a lot of players who are set farmers. The E.P. play also becomes a much tougher position to play when holding big pairs and TPTK post flop relative to tournaments.

6. Loose aggressive play is the way you have to play in tournaments if you want to make it into the serious money (top three spots). In ring games one can usually find games where your tighter style of play can allow you to be a long term significant winner. Tight aggressive players and certain semiloose aggressive players (those who play big pots past the flop only when they have a significant advantage) are the best styles of play overall but the best semiloose agg players are those who play in the highest games where the money pressure factor can often influence decisions. In smaller games the tight aggressive players will do very well overall. The decent semiloose agg player also do well in these games too. Still, one can choose the tighter style or the semiloose aggressive style. The player who is able to play both styles and switch gears will have a huge advantage overall.

7. The short term Luck factor looms large in the tournaments. Once the blinds become significantly large the luck factor often dictates who wins. The long term luck factor is suppose to even out and the most skilled players should have an edge especially if they can also manage their bankroll well and also use good table/seat selection factors. In tournaments you cannot choose your table and/or seat.

8. Tilting in a tournament is a fixed cost situation (you only lose the amount you paid to play). Tilt in a ring game and you can lose your entire bankroll.


I suggest that you buy in for a smaller amount than the max in the ring games for now. The 60BB stack play should be similar to how you play the early middle levels in a tournament. This stack size still allows you to play small pairs even if there is a standard raise looking to flop a set. You can also play suited connectors in a limped setting (from late position or the small blind), and also make the E.P. decisions easier (by making larger than standard raises or possibly even limp and make a big reraise). The Big pairs will also allow you decrease an opponent's implied odds in the reraise situation if your raise makes his implied odds smaller than 12 (or so) and he has a medium or small pair type of holding. If he has a suitred connector he will not even be close to what he needs in implied odds to be able to call (in theory only, lol).

You might even want to try buying in smaller than this. The smaller stack allows you to be more aggressive with TPTK holdings (i.e. big Ace holdings) and even if you do lose you won't be hurt too bad. You can often push your combo draws all in on the flop as well as play the race game just as you would do in a tournament. The stack size between 20 to 40 BBs will often allow you to play in this way. Of course this is the same small edge philosphy you see in the later stages of a tournament yet still some time away from the bubble stage where the average stack is in the 15-20 BB range.

By playing smaller stacks you can always rebuy for more if you think you have a better edge with a bigger stack (i.e. where players are pushing overpairs and TPTK too much with 100 BB stacks and are often getting all in with these holdings) You might also be able to win a large double up with suited connnectors as well if there is a lot of limping and there are multiple opponents with larger than 100 BB stacks (although this also might mean you should leave depending on the style of play they have). With the smaller stacks you can up the ante by buying in for a larger amount should your stack get decimated (i.e. you lost a coin flip or even took a bad beat). You can therefore double up one time and not only get even but maybe even be up depending on the rebuy amount in relationship to the intial buy in. Finally the small stack makes flop decisions significantly easier and preflop decisions become more important as well just as they are in the tournament setting.

I hope this helps you some Rad. After playing with smaller stacks you can start buying in for more once you have gained some experience in the ring games. I am a little surprised that you haven't been playing ring games. Wasn't it about a year ago that you had been posting about ring game situations (I think it was mainly .10-,25 games that you frequented back then)? Scott

[checkmate]

I have found the book PNL very helpful. I think ITH/NL forum had a review of it going on some time back.

Def worth reading IMO.