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crooked27
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 16
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: Tournament Pre flop odds |
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I'm looking for a list of pre flop pot odds to justify calling an all in
Just assume we know what the player has for this.
I just want to know what the odds need to be for these calls.
Me A-x vs A-bigger x
Me K-J vs A-Q
Me 1 overcard vs PP
Me PP vs Bigger PP
Just a quick list of odds are needed please would help alot.
Thank you |
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seanof30306
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Tournament Pre flop odds |
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| crooked27 wrote: | I'm looking for a list of pre flop pot odds to justify calling an all in
Just assume we know what the player has for this.
I just want to know what the odds need to be for these calls.
Me A-x vs A-bigger x |
About a 3:1-3.5:1 dog. Depends on how they're suited.
| crooked27 wrote: | | Me K-J vs A-Q |
About 2:1 dog, maybe slightly less. Again, depends on how they're suited.
| crooked27 wrote: | | Me 1 overcard vs PP |
About a 2.5:1 dog.
| crooked27 wrote: | | Me PP vs Bigger PP |
About a 4:1 dog.
| crooked27 wrote: | | Just a quick list of odds are needed please would help alot. |
It sure sounds like you don't want a lot of discussion on this, though. That leads me to believe you've already gotten some good advice here. If not, here it is.
None of the situations you described are ones where I'd be willing to risk a significant portion of my chipstack, and then, only if I knew for sure it would be heads-up between the other player and myself, and I was getting at least 2:1 on my money, preferrably more.
If I found myself short-stacked, those would be hands I would be raising with from late-middle position, or better (as long as there was no raise in front), but would lay down without a lot of thought to a raise.
If you have AKs, the best unpaired hand in poker, and I have 72o, number 169, You are only a 3:2 favorite over me. That doesn't mean I'll be calling all-ins with 72o, though. The thing you have to understand is there is no way you can be certain of what your opponent has.
Sure, when you have KJ, you're not in that bad shape against AQ, but, what if villain has AK, or AJ, or KK, or AA, or QQ, or JJ? You have no way of knowing.
All of the situations you described are known as "trouble hands", for good reason. Gambling players win with them all the time, but smart players avoid risking a significant portion of their chips with them, unless they're desperate, or getting a great price at minimal risk. |
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crooked27
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Hey thanks for the reply. What i want to know and this is just for a mental checklist . The reason I posted is I rember reading that you need the pot to offer you 1.33 pre flop to call with A-K if you know your opponent has a small to med pair. I know we as players can never know, but sometimes certain odds preflop justify calling an all in from a short stack with A-5 depending on stack. I'm looking for odds pre flop to justify a call. I guess I should have put what do the pot odds need to be offering me if " I know " what the other player has. Any help would be great.
Thanks |
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seanof30306
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| crooked27 wrote: | Hey thanks for the reply. What i want to know and this is just for a mental checklist . The reason I posted is I rember reading that you need the pot to offer you 1.33 pre flop to call with A-K if you know your opponent has a small to med pair. I know we as players can never know, but sometimes certain odds preflop justify calling an all in from a short stack with A-5 depending on stack. I'm looking for odds pre flop to justify a call. I guess I should have put what do the pot odds need to be offering me if " I know " what the other player has. Any help would be great.
Thanks |
The beauty of the weak ace is, if your opponent has any hand other than AA, the worst shape you can be in is a 3-3.5:1 dog. When you're picking off smaller stacks at very little risk to yourself (less than 20% of your chipstack), the magic number is generally thought to be 2:1. At 3:1, you're almost in an ATC situation, as long as you're sure it'll be heads up.
Pot odds in tournaments aren't as simple as they are in a cash game, where you have your whole life for the odds to even out. You can always rebuy.
In a tournament, your life begins with the first hand you're dealt, and ends with the last. That lifespan is too short to play based simply on the odds. Once you bust out of that tournament, you're done.
In a tournament, you'll often find yourself facing drawing situations for all, or a significant portion, of your chips. Regardless of the odds being offered by the pot, you have to make risk the primary consideration in those situations. If you have 12 outs, for example, and your opponent shoves all-in on the flop, the fact that you are literally looking at a 50/50 shot to make your draw is not nearly as important as what shape you will be in if you miss that draw. One of the most common sights in this game is someone whose pocket pair got run down by two overcards, and they're furious, because they were a "favorite" preflop. Well, a 53% favorite means you're going to lose 47 times out of 100. That's a slim margin, indeed. Just because you have the best hand at the moment doesn't mean you should look at risking all, or most, of your chips at that point as "automatic".
Say you have a flush draw from the flop for all your chips. You might be tempted to take that risk. What if, however, someone was holding a gun to your head, and would pull the trigger if you missed? That's the difference between a tournament and a cash game.
It's funny, because I see people playing draws much more aggressively, and calling with draws much more often in tournaments. I look at it the other way. I can always rebuy in a cash game. As long as the price is right, I'm in. In a tournament, life is more important than price. |
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crooked27
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I totally understand what your saying. I agree with what you said. I really just need to find a list of what pot odds you need pre flop for certain cards . It could be cash game or MTT or SNG. I just was hoping someone could pass on the pre flop pot odds if you " Knew " what you were against. Do people know what you need pre flop for 50/50, 60/40 , 70/30, 80/20 as far as just pot odds. |
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seanof30306
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| crooked27 wrote: | | I totally understand what your saying. I agree with what you said. I really just need to find a list of what pot odds you need pre flop for certain cards . It could be cash game or MTT or SNG. I just was hoping someone could pass on the pre flop pot odds if you " Knew " what you were against. Do people know what you need pre flop for 50/50, 60/40 , 70/30, 80/20 as far as just pot odds. |
You're kinda missing the point, dude.
There is no way to know what someone has. You can only guess. A lot of the hands you originally listed are dangerous, because so many hands crush or dominate them. Your "guesses" are frequently going to leave you in really bad shape. When it comes to all-in calls, I'd much rather have A2, for example, than KQs, because the weakest ace is dominated by far fewer hands than the best suited connector which does not have an Ace. When I have that weak ace, I am screwed less often, and less badly, when my guesses are wrong than I am with those other hands you described.
When it comes to the price you need to call, it is a simple matter of comparing your cost to the odds of your winning the hand. I prefer to use odds over percentages, because it's easier to apply when I'm in the middle of a hand. 50/50, or 50%, translates to 1:1. As far as odds are concerned, as long as the pot is laying you what it costs you to call, you are at breakeven. It always does that at 50/50.
60/40 (I'm assuming it's "against"), means 40%,and translates to 1.5:1. As long as the pot is laying me 1.5:1 on my call, I know I'm at breakeven. To arrive at this, I just multiply the call by the odds againt. So, let's say I'm on a 1.5:1 draw, and there's a 100 bet to me. 100 * 1.5 = 150. As long as the pot is laying me at least 150, I'm getting the correct price. Less, and I'm not.
70/30 (again, assuming "against"), means 30%, and translates to 2.5:1 (2.33:1, actually). The pot needs to be laying you 2.5:1, or more, to price you in. Back to the 100-bet-to-you example, 100 * 2.5 = 250. As long as the pot is laying you at least 250, you're getting the correct price.
80/20 (once again, assuming "against", means 20%, and translates to 4:1. The pot needs to be laying you 4:1 on your call to price you in. In the 100-to-call scenario; 100 * 4 = 400. Your breakeven is 400.
More important than knowing these odds, however, is knowing that you're going to be far behind in the hand with all of those trouble hands, and it's usually smarter to just lay it down. |
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crooked27
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| thank you. |
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