Tough Spot 3 Handed

[ImBetterDude]

Three players left in a 6 max game. The first 3 went quickly, and we've been playing 3 handed for awhile. The chips are pretty evenly distributed and we still have high M's.

The play on the table is more impressive than your average $5 SNG. Players are raising and reraising, and likewise folding to significant resistance. There haven't been any crazy calls or unorthodox plays to speak of. The blinds are 50/100, and to make things easy we'll say that everyone's stack is around 3,000.

I'm dealt and limp on the BTN. SB calls, BB checks. 300 in the pot.

Board:

SB checks, BB checks, I check my set.

Turn:

SB checks, BB checks, I check again.

River:

SB bets out 150, BB doubles it to 300. I opted to do another minimum raise to 450, and it was on SB again. He thinks, thinks ,thinks, drains 5 seconds in his time bank, and pushes all in. BB immediately folds, and it's back on me.

After a long deliberation I opted to fold. I thought that I could still outplay everyone and manage to win with my 25 BB's about 40% of the time, and if I called and won I would win maybe 75% of the time with my chip advantage. However, I also had no idea what the hell the SB was sitting on and thought I could very easily have either checked him into a PP turned boat (22 for instance) or perhaps he held something like Q 2 or Q 9 and was slowplaying me as well.

It was an interesting hand. As it turned out I did go on to win the tournament, so it made me regret folding a little less.

[cowboyinexile]

Congrats on winning the tournament, but I don't see how you got away from this.

Most hands that could have beat you on the river would have raised pre-flop, so you are worried about Q2, possibly Q9, and if the guy is real tight, 22. If I flopped trips with that board on an unraised pot and saw a guy turn over Q2 to gut me, well, its not my tournament to win. I can't put a guy on a hand at this point, but 3 handed, with trips, when he shoves, I'm gladly turning over my cards here.


TBH, 3 handed, with Q10, I'm probably raising pre-flop. Heck, 3 handed on the button, I'm raising with a lot of hands.

[ciaran]

I raise pre-flop if I'm playing this, which would depend on the flow of the game.

I'm inclined to bet the flop, but I'm betting the turn for sure. At some point you have to build a pot.

On the river, if you're not calling another raise, you absolutely cannot raise yourself. Your hand has (obviously) significant showdown value, and you're not getting there. As played, I think calling the river the first time is probably marginally the best play. You've under-repped your hand significantly, so raising and calling a shove isn't bad either especially since your opponents aren't likely to be very good, but realistically there aren't a lot of hands that should be calling your raise that you'll beat, so just taking what's offered from those that have bluffed is probably a bit more valuable.

[ImBetterDude]

I'll admit the hand was misplayed and far from standard. I should have maybe thrown a half pot bet on the turn...that'd be more by the book.

As played...what would you peg the SB on?! He bets, BB min raises, I reraise min, and then he pushes. I just couldn't put him on a hand that was worse than mine...except MAYBE a Q with a lower kicker. Anything else that I have beat would likely just call and not push.

I'd love to see what he had.

[ciaran]

Really depends on how bad he is. Worse queens, a bunch of nines, a bunch of PP and the odd A- or K-high (seriously) are probably in there for quite a few players, and of course better queens/22/99 are as well. A good player pretty much jams only better hands, of course.

[ImBetterDude]

Here's my other problem. Say I did throw in 200 on the turn, and this whole time he did either have a better Q or a full house. In that case he's going to raise me to like 700...and possibly put me all in on the river. If on the turn they didn't have anything (usually) they will just fold, as there are no draws.

By slow playing my set of queens on an uncoordinated board, I'm either going to avoid getting stacked 2% of the time by a bigger slow played hand (or a PP that boats on turn or river) and will lose only a small amount of money, 48% of the time my opponents will have caught a pair and will call a 2/3 pot bet on the river, and 50% of the time they will catch nothing and fold to any river bet. Important note...I think this strategy is sound against 2 or less opponents, and only if the board has zero coordination.

If you add up all the percentages and expected gains or losses in the scenariose above, I'd assume the EV of slow playing the flop and turn would be higher than betting out on the turn...mostly because of avoiding the check-raise 2% of the time by a bigger slow played hand, and the value of extracting some money by a player who catches a pair on the river.

[ciaran]

Slowplaying leaves you no chance to get paid by a worse queen or a mid-pair, and no one's giving you credit for a queen when you bet the flop when checked to, so you get to start building a pot against the guy who turns a pair with an ace or king, or who gets attached to his PP.

Moreover, if you're not planning on getting a bunch of chips in the middle when you hit trips, there's not a lot of point in playing QTo in the first place. Yes, you'll get stacked in these spots some times, but you'll stack other people as well.

And while I realize you ended up winning this SNG, that has no more to do with the correct play of this hand than getting all-in vs Q9o on the turn would have.

[ImBetterDude]

Ciaran, I agree 100% that your line is standard and I deviated from normal strategy a bit. I think my play is a bit defensive and abnormal, but it's far from atrocious.

In fact, in this spot I'm convinced it made me $20. Rarely if ever do you see someone pushing in that spot with a hand worse than mine, even at the $5 level, and ESPECIALLY against someone who is pegged as solid.

[ciaran]

I don't think it's an atrocious play, but you are being results oriented. You didn't get stacked this hand, so you played it correctly. Or, you won this SNG so you played it correctly.

You are supposed to get stacked sometimes, for instance by someone with Q9 in this hand. If you aren't having this happen often enough, it implies that you aren't getting full value from your hand in other instances, and the net result of that is that you won't win as much in the long run as you would otherwise.

[ImBetterDude]

[ciaran]

If he had Q9 and the river was something innocuous, you could have easily stacked him by betting the flop and turn to setup a river push.

Now, obviously, we don't know what he had and it's certainly possible he'd have had you beat at showdown here had you built a big pot, but my point was that you need to build pots with your good hands to get full value out of them. If you routinely miss this value, which includes getting coolered some times, you will lose out in the long run.