Thinking about the game

[AlamedaMike]

For those of you that do not read 2+2 posts - I found this post interesting as an insight on how players think about the game. We know that Hold'em poker is a predator game - after-all someone on this site has a Shark as their avatar?

I can not change my avatar to a guppy - btw, how did they know that I was in seat 5?

It is more interesting to me since some of the players play on the same live tables as I do.

I need some more time with Inside the Poker Mind

So, is picking your seat a psychology issue or a strategy issue? I was playing in a very tough 6/12 live game and I was stuck between two LAG's. The player on my right was a true maniac and the player on my left was just plain loose - he call called my UTG raise with 2c-4c.

Was that a bad seat? I like the maniac on my right but the LAG on my left was a pain.

The reason that it was a tough game was that there was a lot of raising and not much folding going on.

[badboywes]

This sounds like a very +EV game to me and only gets me excited about starting up playing live sometime next month. I think it might seem tuff to you because of how slow the game is live compared to online?

Online when we get on a table like this we are very happy to be at such a loose table and are patient for hands. I am curious if you find it harder to be patient at a loose Live table then a online loose table?

I could see how at a live table with so much action going on how it would be more tempting to play more mediocre hands in hopes of hitting a big flop.
Maybe I am way off here in my thinking but I thought I would share my thoughts while reading your post.

Wes

[Willem]

[AlamedaMike]

Oh it was a fun day for sure - I don't play exclusively for the money but, of course, I don't want to lose my house - valued at about $800,000 now.

So, even if I can not beat the game yet I will play for the entertainment value - if I am not enjoying the game I will just leave even if I am not losing at the time.

Later I moved seats and got on the other side of the LAGs behind another good play but a little on the loose side. Most are loose - some play 60% to 90% of their hands.

[badboywes]

[AlamedaMike]

One player counted another players hands - 96 hands dealt and he played 93 of them.

30%-50% is normal. Heck, I play about 25% myself. I play about 2 hands not counting the blinds on average 2/8=25% - most see 4-6/8=50%-75%.

Definition of loose.

[theOMEGAN]

sounds like my kind of game to get me tightened up and get them in there when I deside to play. But for the most part. tight aggressive wins here. Let them bet into you. Win a few and they should cool there jets.

[AlamedaMike]

Thanks -

I can not figure out how to end up winning at the end of the year.

My goal is to play x number of hours per year and win 2bb/hr at the end of the year - not to win x number of dollars. After all it is a hobby but it can be an expensive hobby if you are not careful.

I need to balance the desire to play and the desire not to lose to much doing that. Every session is full of peaks and valleys. It is a slippery slope down but a rough climb up.

Therefore, I think that I need to work on quiting. Today I was up 30 BB after about 2 hours. I then hit a wall and started to miss flops, miss rivers, and get beat on the river. This is a normal course of the way the game goes. After about 1.5 hours more I lost back 12 bb leaving me 18 bb ahead.

I gave it up and ended 17.5/3.5 or about 5bb/hr. I am now losing .5bb/hr this year.

This might not bet the correct way to approach the game but after 4 years of this my play is not getting any better any faster so something has to happen for me to swing into the winning column. If I keep doing the same thing it is not going to change.

In an ideal world I could play as many hours as I like and then win 1-2bb/hr at then end - but that is not happening.

[AlamedaMike]

Thinking about the game, what a subject.

I do not think that I can improve my game to any significant extent. That is a sad commentary on my 5 years of playing at hold'em.

I have studied the books, played the game, posted hands and discussed poker. I can beat the low limit and micro limit online.

Currently running at break even at .5/1 ~~~ 0.16bb/100 hands 9,414 hands and at .25/5 ~~~ 1.65bb/100 hands 23,478.

But when I try 1/2 or 2/4 I lose and I lose in live games 3/6 and 6/12.

Basically, I am pretty much at a stand still and I do not know how to do better. I do not want to say that I am in a runt but my betting patterns are about the same. I raise with good hands, I fold junk, etc. I fold many hands that others will play.

I have a few leaks but nothing that I think is huge.

I have tried loose and I have tried tight and I have tried in between. Still the same results.

My biggest weakness is reading the players. I am working on this but it is going slow.

On a personal side my wife is a nagging me to quit playing live poker since I lose about $10 an hour at the end of the year. The $35,200 that I won in the BBJP is almost gone and now I need to use my money to play the game. She quit live poker last year because she could not beat the game long term. She plays S&Gs online.

So, for not I am going to play .25/.50 and .5/1 for the duration. Playing online does not help with playing live so I might have to just give that up.

That is too bad since I put in five years at this game, well on 4/16/2008 it will five years.



My wife wants to burn my 30 poker books, I did let her toss some bad ones.

Anyway that is what I am thinking now.

[AlamedaMike]

Well, I did not want to start a new thread but at the same time I have read what I wrote above since this is really a different subject.

If my primary goal it to make money - since money makes the world go around - then I need to play accordingly. One goal could be to always play my A game and that would be a worthwhile goal. One may lead to the other. Lately I have been "running bad" so I need to examine my A game.

First you must have an A game that will beat some one else's A game. This is something that Tommy said.

That got me to thinking. How do you know that your A game is better? Observation.

When you begin to play poker you can play by a "set" of rules until you learn the game - many never progress beyond this point - these are the people you want to play against in my opinion.

I'm not saying that I can out play anyone, when I win I got lucky, not because I made they do something that I wanted them to do - that is more advanced.

So food for thought.

o How do you know when to fold, call, raise, or even check against one or more players?

o How do you know if your A game is 1) good and 2) better that player X or Y?

We know that hold'em, like all poker, is a game of predator behavior even if it is not mentioned very much - but alluded to "if you look around the table and can not identify the fish then the fish is you."

You want to play against the weak players at the table and stay away from the strong players at the same time. Everyone takes bad beats but not all players play bad. If you play well against weaker players then you should be able to overcome the bad beats, I would think, maybe. There are a few good books that will help. Pych of Poker is one that comes to mind. Paying attention and remembering is another approach.

Know when to .... depends on the opponents you are facing.

As a simple example: After A-B-C poker then the decision you should make depends on who is in the hand with you.

You get a playable hand, say 9-9 MP and raise first in. The flop is T-6-3 rainbow. The SB bets. What you do depends on what you think of the SB and the other players in the hand. A-B-C is to fold giving the SB credit for a Ten. Same goes for A-K and you miss the flop - depends on the remaining players as to what you do.

I have not said anything new here. My question is how to do you determine what I asked above.

o How do you know when to fold, call, raise, or even check against one or more players?

o How do you know if your A game is 1) good and 2) better that player X or Y?

When A-B-C poker breaks down for you then what do you do? I do not mean outplaying them (bluffing, semi-bluffing, etc) just playing better. If you keep missing the flop then there is nothing you can do.

Find players you can beat and proceed to beat them. How do you find them? How do you know you can beat them?

They are ... (weak)
Passive
Predictable
Loose
Unconscious (level 0 thinking)
Un-knowledgeable (never studied the game)

They are not ... (strong)
Aggressive
Tricky/deceptive
Selective
Aware (conscience, thinking)
Knowledgeable (studied the game)

You are likely to get more bad beats against players that you can beat than against better players.

So, my goal is to pay more attention to the line up. This sounds basic but not intuitively obvious. I have recognized for quite awhile that game selection is key to my success but I have not been modifying my A game sufficiently to match the game conditions.

Maybe this comes with experience. I think that my A game needs to have a sliding scale. Often basic A-B-C works just fine. Once in awhile a more selective A game needs to be employed.

Example:

A-B-C is to fold KQs if there is a raise in front and you are EP (ITH starting hand chart). You might 3-bet a weak player if the situation dictates.

I hate playing with idiots but they are they are the only ones that I can beat over the long run. They are often unconscious and just get lucky. They will raise me from behind often and catch up. If you have the worst hand you are an idiot to raise but they do anyway - bless them - they do not know any better. They raise with a draw that is 30% to come in HU. They are putting in 50% of the money with a 30% draw (or sometimes even less).

Things for me to think about: How to identify a bad player and how to be happy when he sucks out.

[AlamedaMike]

I played this hand non-ABC because of my read on the player doing the betting MP.

A little loose on my part but I thought I had the best hand on the flop and I did! I slowed down on the turn which is MUB.

Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: ITH Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) , , (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 9c Kh (two pair, kings and nines).
MP2 doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins 14.75 BB.

I looked at his hand - he hand - nice draw on the turn. An example where they raise from behind - he had 34% to win and was putting in 50% of the money. He should have just called. But, if he missed his hand on the river I might have checked.

This is where I need to value bet the river if it was a blank.

[egarevel]

Move to your left preferable leapfrogging the guy on your immediate left. This move may not do anything in terms of EV but variance would be improved big time if you did.

[AlamedaMike]

[AlamedaMike]

[Nutjob]

Sometimes, over-analysis leads to paralysis. Or something.