The worst pf situation imo. Probably.

[Zool1]

Let's make this totally clear - no results orientation! I'm not posting this because I lost it, although I may have; I'm not saying whether he had me crushed, I had him in bad shape, or we were flipping.

But is this too light at NL10 versus a total unknown* for 80BBs? Not that it matters much, but SB was a drooler.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.85)
UTG+1 ($7.90)
CO ($10.16)
BTN ($11.28)
SB ($4.63)
Hero ($14.39)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.4, 2 folds, SB calls $0.35, Hero raises to $1.6, UTG+1 raises to $2.8, SB folds, Hero raises to $14.39, UTG+1 goes all-in $5.1

*which this guy was. HUD stats hadn't even come up yet, although not sure if he posted early or had been through the blinds...

[rayrns]

In most cases where I re-raise a player and get re-re-raised, I want to see a flop before committing any more chips. Too many times the 3rd raise is KK or AA, and because villian is an unknown, I will give him the benifit an ok player until he shows me otherwise.

It will also let you get away from your hand cheaper on those ugly AKX, AXX, KXX flops if villian is willing to put in a good size flop bet. On a flop that doesn't help us (no Queen) but doesn't look like it would help out villian either(board cards all below Ten), we can push the flop at no higher cost than getting AI preflop but if he is a player that will push AK, QQ, JJ (preflop) as hard as AA or KK we can feel a bit better about pushing when the flop is in our favor.

I know villian in your hand made sort of a min. re-raise but still think I would just call at that point, see the flop and then decide how to procede.

Caution is the word about my .02 cents worth as I am just learning about NL play.

Ray

[ciaran]

I don't play cash, and I really don't play NL cash.

That said, I do study a lot, including cash hands that come up various places, and I think the consensus would be that at NL10 there's probably no good reason to avoid this versus an unknown. This is mostly a drooling idiots are common at this limit issue, though.

The other issue is that barring getting away cheap when your opponent flops a better pair or set of aces/kings, you're mostly going broke post-flop here versus better hands and not stacking worse ones (or at least not getting the price to set mine and stack them when they end up worse).

I sort of think that if you're not going to be willing to get in pre-flop that you might be better off not 3-betting in the first place, but I'm way too out of tune with deep-stack play to know if that could be right.

[Neilis]

I'm not about to go get pokerstove out, but I'm mostly sure that the result of this one is always:

If he can have AK then you're good to get it in, if he can have AK and JJ then you're well and truly profitable and if he can only have QQ+ then you have to fold. Villain always has enough AK in his range to be getting it in here in my opinion.

[Zool1]

Well I have 40% equity versus KK+, AK so if you take it as an all-in descision at the point where I'm faced with his 4-bet, there's $4.80 in the pot, he has $5.10 behind, and to put him all-in I need to invest another $6.30. So 6.3 to win 9.9, right? So I'm def good here. And obviously if his calling range is KK+ I'm f***.

It depends what he calls my 5-bet shove with though, and if he ever folds pre (i.e. AK or whatever). Is the 'sinister 4-betting range' (i.e. has to be what he considers a monster) of an unknown QQ+ or JJ+, AK or what? Does he call with the entirety of that range? I've seen people get it in happily for 100bbs with AQo, although usually as a 4-bet shove, not a 5-bet call. There's a world of difference.

To put it yet another way, I would insta-call a 4-bet shove here; whether when I 5-bet and he calls I'm still in good shape, I dunno.

[emmapeel]

If villain is pot-commited then it is something like $6 to call $10. (Counting villain as all-in.) Which isn't great. Pushing is prolly ok though as we have the odds right if villain only ever has AK/KK+ here. ($40%?)

Calling is an option but it is hard to work out. The idea is to stop and go on good flops.

If 6 max is like full ring at this level then I'm folding. I assume that 6 max is a little more aggressive though so pushing might be easiest.

Interesting re-raise by villain as he has left himself with a possible fold to a push. Maybe villain has some odd hands here; not many though.

EP

[ciaran]

Temporarily moved here from NL and bumped for our expert's opinions.