Starting hands in loose games

[Willem]

Hi Terry,

How would you change the starting hands presented in your book when playing in loose games where a lot of pots are 3+ handed on the flop, and every pot is raked the full 5% (like is the case on stakes such as $1/$2 and $2/$4). Do you still recommend opening with QJo from UTG (6-handed), and A4o from the CO?

[TerryBorer]

Hi Willem -

No on both questions. The higher the rake the tighter you should play and dropping the worst hands from the chart (typically the expert hands) helps avoid marginal situations. Of course try to look for rakeback and bonuses, playing multiple sites if needed.

I like QJo as a heads-up hand; you can hit a big pair, represent an ace or king to win on the flop and it provides balance to your raising standards. In a very loose game you really only accomplish the first goal so I would adjust and fold first in UTG with QJo.

The whole point of stealing is to well, steal the blinds (+0.75 BB with no rake is HUGE equity), so in a loose game where this isn't likely to happen you need to tighten up. So I'd fold A4 in the CO when there are limpers or when you know players behind you will call since A4o doesn't play well multi-handed. I'd still raise QJo though from the CO. See page 78 for my thoughts on what to do against limpers.

-- Terry

[kenaces]

Hi

great book !

great forum as i was thinking the same thing as willem!

I also play in loose games with a high rake and the blinds rarely fold. are there any other hands you would drop from the charts in the book besides QJo from UTG??

what about limping behind 2 limpers with small Axs hands? I know the book says to fold small A hands in this spot but i wasn't sure if this included suited A's or just small offsuited As

I was thinking about dropping 22-55 from my stealing range against blinds that never fold what do you think? are there any other hands i should eliminate against calling station blinds?

thanks

[TerryBorer]

Great questions.

First, let's dig deeper into "the blinds don't fold".

Case 1: They like to call pre-flop and fold on the flop. This is pretty sweet and you should be stealing even more than what is on my chart because the blinds give up so much equity by folding the flop too much. Plug in some numbers and you'll see why this is so. I add hands like T7o, 98o and K2s.
Case 2: The like to play back against you pre-flop or on the flop. Here you need to be careful, especially if you play a generally tight post-flop game. If you get 3-bet pre-flop by a loose player and miss, do you usually fold the flop? If so, you're going to get run over and need to tighen up a lot. I still like to steal with ace-high against wild players because I can win unimproved heads-up. I cut out button hands like Q8o, Q7s, K8, 65s and 33.
Case 3: The blinds just keep calling but rarely play back without a good hand. This is another good situation and I like to raise liberally with any ace (since I can win unimproved) and play normally otherwise. Post-flop I don't bluff much. If both blinds call and I miss I give up right away. If I hit anything I'll value-bet the whole way. Advanced Limit-holdem Strategy by Barry Tanenbaum has a great discussion on this topic and if I remember correctly (I lent out my copy so I can't check) he says to sometimes just limp with a rag ace and see what happens. That keeps the rake and your investment low while still maximizing your gain post-flop.

I hope that answers question 1. Question 2 was small suited aces after two limpers.

Unsuited aces are trash. You may be up against a bigger ace and only miracle flops will allow you to bet with confidence. Suited aces are better but I still fold them unless the limpers are very bad. So I think it is marginal and you should use your judgment.

Question 3: Dropping 22-55 from your stealing range against blinds that don't fold.
I'm quite positive with those hands and so I almost always steal (except for 22 and 33 from the cut-off and 22 on the button).
If you want to start dropping these hands I'd start with 22 and 33 in case 3 and case 2 as described above.

-- Terry

[kenaces]

thanks will do

what about from the blinds against 2-3 limper's? p86 says to "often raise with good cards" I am thinking JJ+ AQ+ maybe KQs or is this too tight. please keep in mind i am playing in very loose 1/2 and 2/4 games tight now

thanks again

[TerryBorer]

I'd raise ATs, AJo, KQo, TT+ in those spots (should have given the range in the book). Most other hands I'd wait to see the flop - bad players don't do pot odds very well so they'll give up a lot of equity chasing long shots. When I miss I quietly fold against my three opponents.

Do these loose players raise with their good hands (e.g. AQ, JJ)? If not, then you have to be careful since they may have a premium hand. Otherwise you can raise lighter because they probably don't have much.

My rule of thumb for raising preflop is that for the raise to be wrong, someone else must be benefiting. If the limp means weak (e.g. A4, K6s, Q9o) it is hard to see how they benefit by you raising a marginal hand like ATo. Just make sure to play carefully post-flop since you have poor position (which isn't as bad against passive opponents) and many opponents.

Terry