Small PPs in Early-Postion

[blah730235]

Ok i guess I should have cut right to the chase, I'm having trouble understanding what seems to be a widespread concept:

Why do so many people think it's a good idea to limp/call with a small PP UTG with a mix of good and bad players, 100BBs & fullring? Raising I understand to a certain extent because of bluff equity(althought I would appreciate thoughts on this to) but limp/calling just looks like there's to many negative aspects.

I like knowing that when I limp in with a small pp that the pots either been raised preflop by a villan with a good hand or there are a ton of limpers who make the pot bigger and that makes more villans to hit a marginal hand whom will put money in the pot (Top pair). I think these are the top two situations to be in when we hit that set and EP limping certainly doesn't even come close guranteeing either of these.

It's alot harder to build a pot oop. Most smart villans are going to try to control the pot with marginal hands. It's harder even against bad players to build a pot oop.

And speaking of which why is it so good to play a small pp against nearly any villan who raises preflop? The odds are already 1:7.5 that we will hit a set but if villans has a moderate raise range it's ~ 1:3 that a hand like KJ is going to even hit top pair and even rarer then maybe 1:2 that villan will be one of the bad players(if we're assuming that half the table is good and half is bad) whom will not laydown TPGK ever. I understand playing small pp against nits whom are going to raise with good hands but against players with wider raising ranges it seems much less profitable.

PP limps are also stolen by 3bets, usually when you limp in Late position you might have to face a raise but much rarely a 3bet.

Just seems like limping in EP makes for to many lost BBs and not enough made up for espically since we are far from guranteed from winning 100 BBs when we do hit that set oop.

What am i missing???

[SittingDuck]

[Taardvark]

In a no limit cash game under most circumstances small pocket pairs are considered drawing hands and you are playing them for set value. They have some showdown value in tournaments but that isn't the case very often in a cash game. You want to play them as cheaply as possible since you are only going to set up around 1 time in 7 so you have to make sure when you do set up you make enough money to cover the times you don't hit and have to bail post flop. This is why it's so important not to call anything other than a standard pre flop raise with them most of the time.

So, if you called a 3 BB raise seven times with small pairs (I'll use NL100 for ease of math)

7 x $3 = $21

So on that one time you do set up you need to win a $21 pot just to break even on average (and don't forget you don't win everytime you have a set either). So you should be able to see that if you can get in cheaper even just once or twice how important that is long-term I think you'll see overwhelmingly why the advice is to play them to see cheap flops.

Now if you raise with these hands you are increasing your cost of playing them in a couple of ways. The obvious is putting in three times as much preflop with no guarantee of it paying off. The other is getting 3 bet by stronger hands and then not hitting your set.

As you move up you will need to occasionally open raise with them to mix up your game but as a general rule you want to play them cheap. They should be among the easiest hands you have to play. You either hit a set or you don't. If you don't you are done unless it's checked down.

You're not going to win 100BB with these hands all that often, but you really don't need to. Just winning 15-20 BB a few times will make these extremely profitable for you over the long haul. It's why there are so many set miners in the lower NL games.

[jaydreb]

You might want to read Ed Miller's recent article about this topic on his blog. http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/playing-small-pocket-pairs-preflop-in-6-max-no-limit-holdem.html The text is pasted below (hopefully this doesn't violate any copyrights or rules of this site):

Playing Small Pocket Pairs Preflop in 6-Max No-Limit Hold’em

This is a rapid fire article on playing small pocket pairs preflop in 6-max no-limit. By small pairs I mean roughly 66 and worse. I’m going to give you some basic rules of thumb and an outline of the general reasoning behind them. I’m not going to go in-depth because to do that would constitute an entire chapter of a book, and I’m trying to keep this article under 1,000 words.

Small pocket pairs are usually good hands in no-limit. They make sets, and sets are the ultimate stacking hand. So I usually play my pairs. I’ll quickly run down situations where I play pairs. Assume an online 6-max game with 100BB blinds.

Playing Pairs
If everyone folds to me, I open small pocket pairs. I open them under the gun also.

If someone raises in front of me and I have position, I tend to call with small pairs. These pairs become stronger under the following circumstances:

The preflop raiser is loose after the flop.
The preflop raiser is tight preflop, especially if they play fit-or-fold out of position after the flop.
The blinds are loose and/or bad.

With position, I’m playing the small pairs for two reasons: to try to stack someone if I flop a set, and to try to steal pots where my out of position opponents seem weak. Against loose postflop players, I’m more likely to stack someone off. Against tight preflop players who play fit-or-fold, I’m more likely to steal pots while I still have a decent shot to stack them because they’ll have a big pair as a sizable part of their preflop ranges.

The pairs become weaker (possibly to the point of not calling with them) under the following circumstances:

The preflop raiser is a LAG who challenges for pots from out of position even after he misses the flop.
The blinds like to 3-bet and squeeze, or one of them is short-stacked and likely to play jam or fold preflop.
The preflop raiser has a short stack and/or the preflop raise is excessively large.
LAG players who challenge for pots are tricky, because LAG players are hard to stack because they tend to have a weaker hand range and are hard to steal from because they challenge for pots. The 3-betting and stack sizes issues all go down to a lack of implied odds for stacking your opponents and a lack of leverage to steal pots.

From the blinds I call a single preflop raise with small pairs as long as two or more players are already in the pot.

Not Playing Pairs
These are the main circumstances where I might not play a pair. First, if I’m in the blinds and I’m up against someone who has made a 3.5x or larger preflop open raise I may or may not play a small pair. I’ll tend to call against tight raisers, particularly players I feel I have good control over after the flop. I like the tight raisers because they are easier to stack, and it’s a bonus if they’ll often tip the strength of their hand early on. I also tend to call against very bad players. Any time the “spot” at the table opens, I’m calling with any pocket pair.

But against tough TAGs opening from late position and tough LAGs, I don’t like calling decent-sized preflop raises with small pairs from out of position. You won’t catch your opponent with a good hand too often after the flop, so your sets will frequently go unpaid. If your opponent plays position well and uses leverage, you won’t often get your small pair to showdown unimproved either. So the small pairs can actually become unprofitable.

Sometimes I fold them in these situations, and other times I 3-bet them. The 3-bet is a light 3-bet, and I try it when I know my opponent is opening very light and will have to fold to a large percentage of my 3-bets. Pocket pairs offer the extra advantage that when your light 3-bet gets called, it’s a whole lot easier to get your stack in if you flop a set. Overall, a 3-bet is too much to pay preflop just to try to flop a set, but sometimes your preflop fold equity is enough that you don’t need to see a flop and stack your opponent very often to make up the difference and make the entire play profitable.

If there’s a raise and a call to me in the blinds, though, while I might occasionally be tempted to try to squeeze 3-bet with the pocket pair, usually I just call. The hand has more value to play for a call against two players than against one.

The other main circumstance where I ditch small pairs is when I get 3-bet, particularly when I’m out of position. Naturally I’ll call a min-3-bet or a small 3-bet, but a typical pot-sized or near pot-sized 3-bet is too big to call with a small pocket pair with a plan to play fit-or-fold postflop. In other words, in a $1-$2 game with $200 stacks, if I open for $7 and then someone on the button makes it $24 and it’s folded to me, I typically fold. If my opponent is guaranteed to have AA or KK when he 3-bets, then it could be worth a call just for implied odds. But against a 3-bet that can be at all light, I won’t stack my opponent often enough when I hit to justify the $17 preflop outlay.

If I think there’s a decent shot to win the pot if I miss my set, then calling the 3-bet becomes more reasonable. If I’m in position, for instance, or if my opponent is going to play a really terrible strategy like 3-betting only big pairs and AK and betting the flop with the pairs and checking with unimproved AK.

Summary
The main situations where I might fold a small pocket pair is if I’m heads-up and out of position against a relatively loose opener who plays well postflop or when I open the pair and get 3-bet. In the former case, I’ll sometimes fold the pair, sometimes call, and sometimes 3-bet. In the latter case, I’ll usually fold to the 3-bet, but I might call against a bad opponent, and I might even shove the pair if I think my opponent is 3-betting very light.

Most other situations I’ll play the small pairs, raising them if it’s folded and limped to me, and calling with them if someone else raises.

[blah730235]

Thanks for comments guys it really help to have a couple extra perspectives, this is honestly why I will quit poker sessions early somedays and look over these forums.

[Scully]

I'm a low level set miner with small PPs. It takes very specific situations for me to fold them or not open raise, which all relate to lack of implied odds as mentioned on EM's article.

I like to open raise small PPs in any position, even UTG. The reasons are twofold - firstly it's so much easier to stack someone in a raised pot, and by playing small PPs that what I'm looking to do. With AKo I'm looking to hit TPTK most of the time and win a reasonable sized pot - with small PPs I want to stack somone. At the levels I play (up to $25NL) 3 bets are so rare that the chances of being re-raised are slim. At the levels I play you're usually getting called by higher pairs or two big cards. If the big cards hit or the higher pair becomes and overpair on the flop you're winning a large pot when you hit a set (except on the very rare occassions you get outdrawn). OOP if you miss you check/fold (unless there's a goo reason not to) and in position you can c-bet when checked to you.

Another benefit is disguising your big pairs in EP. If I'm raising 22 in EP, the observant villain will find it hard to put me on AA when I make the same raise in EP with that hand. If I'm seen playing both pairs the same way in EP, or in fact any position, they don't know where they are and you're more likely to be able to win the blinds uncontested or small pots on the flop.

The last benefit I see to raising small PPs in EP (and this actually works for any two, but I don't tend to do this with 72o) is that, if you're genuinely raising from EP with any pair, SCs, two high cards, etc you can play the flop as if you had any of these holdings. For example, I raise to 4bb with 33 UTG, but 10 hands ago I did this with AA or AK, and 10 hands before that with T9s. The flop comes K84 with two of my suit. If I know villain's range well enough that he specifically probably doesn't have AA, KK or AK I can lead into this. Put yourself in villain's shoes - what do I have? Is it AK, AQ, AA, 89s - or 33????

This might be getting a little sopihisticated for low levels but I use it to good effect, although I must say it's easier to do this in position than OOP.

[emmapeel]

There are two points here: Limping early with a low pair and calling a raise with a low pair.

1/ Limping early with a low pair.

If you are playing to win big with a set then the kind of hands you want to play against are the big pairs and AK who are likely to pay off your set to the biggest amount. However if you raise early with your low pair then these kind of hands will usually re-raise and make you normally fold. However if you just limp then the big hands you want to play against will usually raise to an amount that you can call. For me it is not always a call here though. It depends on the size of the raise and the amount I expect to win post-flop.

2/ Calling a raise with a small pair

is a similar judgement. It depends on the size of the raise and the amount I expect to win post-flop if I hit my set. For me it is never automatic as some may have suggested.

In both the above cases I will be playing a raised pot to make a set with the possibility that someone has a big pair. You will rarely get a chance to do this if you raise in the first place as a big pair will usually re-raise.

Judging how much you make when you hit a set depends on a lot of factors. Normally the looser the opponents the better or else a tight player who won't lay down top pair.

EP

[Taardvark]

[BIG-SLICK-POKER]

Always flat call and see if u can get in cheap for the set .. Call small raises with them

[blah730235]