PP´s in BB against a steal

[Skrotnisse]

Today I´m looking at defending against a steal (from CO or BU) with pocket pairs in BB. I have come to the conclusion that I´m going to:

- 3bet with 77+ pre flop.
- tend to 3bet with 66+ (but sometimes go C and C/R and sometimes go C and C/C)
- call with 22-55
- fold 22-44 against a tight stealer at a fullring table

To better my play I´m now going to post six hands for discussion:

- Hand 1:
Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with
2 folds, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

- Against a tight post flop player is a donk bet in order?



- Hand 2:
Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is BB with
Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: (4.25BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (6.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

- I thought my check raise cold get him to fold 33-88 on turn. Would check/call flop and turn be better? And maybe check/fold river?



- Hand 3:
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with
3 folds, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

- Is this too weak? Should i have C/C flop and C/F turn? Or even C/C down? Villain is a standard SLAG (26/16)



- Hand 4:
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

- Villain is 70/40/+2 after 150 hands. I´m giving up value just calling pre flop since i have a good equity edge (even if he caps!) But it lets me play good post flop. Would you guys recommend me raising pre flop and C/C post flop anyways?



- Hand 5:
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Flop: (5.5SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.75BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (5.75BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

- I got lucky on this hand! Would you recommend me to start C/C on flop or turn instead?



- Hand 6:
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with
3 folds, Button raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Flop: (5.5SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

- Villain is somewhat LAG. Should i call down or is flop fold okay?

[kpr16]

Why don't you post a link to this thread in the Ask and Expert section and see if Matt would mind taking a look at it. Edit: I'll actually do this now.

I don't like to 3-bet at all with my entire range now, but it's a style thing.


Hand 1: I think a check-fold is fine with no flush draw here. There's still a few hands we're ahead of but our equity is still really bad in most of those cases and you have 2 more streets to worry about.

Hand 2: I don't really like the flop kr because I don't think you ever fold a better hand, and you encourage rebluffs. I think you can check and call and take this to a showdown in most cases.

Hand 3: I don't fault a fold. Again, even when we're ahead we have to fade a lot of draws on this board, and our equity is low. I definitely don't call down here every time (you may use a read if you'd like). I might even play this situation at whim, but tend to call more than I fold.

Hand 4: I would play the same.

Hand 5: Given that you 3-bet preflop, I may have check-called the turn, but otherwise, nice hand.

Hand 6: Such a shitty spot. You can call down reluctantly, or fold reluctantly...and again if he's semibluffing a good draw, your equity is less than 50 percent. You may can call down if no broadway hits, but I don't fault a fold on the flop. This is a good reason why I prefer to just call preflop...in which case you can definitely check-call all 3 streets here.

[Skrotnisse]

[Fenris78]

In hand 1-3 I don't mind a check-fold at all. You have bottom pair on an Axx flop, so you're probably a dog to a typical buttons stealing range.

In hand 4 I would check-call too. If there were a flush draw on board I would think about check-raising the flop, because it would disguise your range a bit more. If you check-raise on this flop you announce that you have a pair and allow him to play more correctly against you. By check-calling you catch come double barrel bluffs.

In hand 5 I would really hate to get called on this flop and I would probably bet-fold the turn. But I think check-calling might be superior because this is a good (semi-)bluffing board, so check-calling to encourage bluffs might have some value.

Hand 6 I would probably fold, because there is no flush draw. He might have KT or T9 for a semi-bluff but even then he has tons of outs. I don't mind a fold right away. Just be careful because if you regularly bet-fold flops you will get run over by observant aggressive players.

[Willem]

In hand 1, you are probably way behind and even if you have the best hand, villain at least has 10 outs twice and will win the pot roughly 40% of the time (if he doesn't fold)

In hand 2, villain will probably call you down with any pair because you might be semi-bluffing a flush draw. I would much rather prefer to have a rainbow board here because your check-raise is much stronger then and villain is less likely to call you down with an underpair to the ace. Would you also check-raise with a slightly worse hand here like king high?

I think hand 6 is a good fold. Even if villain is semi-bluffing with a hand like T9o, he still has 14 outs twice and is actually a favorite to win the hand. (T9o has 52.7% equity on this board vs your 77: http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/poker-tools?ql=e2533edc1f21 )

I find the decision whether to 3-bet in hands 5 and 6 very interesting.

Advantages of just calling:
- You can check-fold if the flop is very nasty, having lost only 1 small bet.
- You can check-raise for exactly the same cost as 3-betting preflop and leading the flop.
- You can decide to check-call every street.
- You can represent a wider range of hands.
- It's true that you might be able to pick up the pot over the flop if villain misses the flop but in that case, you are probably bluffing with the best hand.
- You probably have some edge against villains' range but I doubt this edge is very big. It may be worth forfeiting this small edge in favor of postflop playability.

Of course, you should occasionally 3-bet a medium or small pocket pair in order to balance your 3-betting range but I think just calling is a better default option.

[Skrotnisse]

[Skrotnisse]

Regarding the individual hands:

In hand 1 you guys haven´t answered what you think of a donkbet? Do you think the pot is too small to try and pick up? Or don´t you think he will fold on the flop if he doesn´t have a pair or a flushdraw? (this is the kind of flop that you wished you had 3bet pre flop because it´s so easy to pick off with a bet) Even if he suspects that I am donk bluffing how could he possibly call down with a pocket pair no flush draw or with a Qx, Tx (with no flush draw. I think he could even fold a Jx or a low flush draw at times. Of course if he calls the donkbet I am done with the hand!

Hand 2 looks like a check/call hand. But the problem here is that if I call the flop it greatly reduces the hands he bets on turn and even more so on river. So if he 3barrels I´m very seldom ahead. Thats why i tried picking it up with a check/raise instead. Kpr16 you suggested a calldown, even against a riverbet? Fenris suggested a check/fold which I think is way too weak. We are three people at the table. I would guess button raises more than 50% in this spot. Would you check/fold at a heads up table too when button continuation bets? (just because an A flops!) And to answer Willem... I know that any pair will call me down. Im hoping to fold any non pair hands since i think they woudn´t 3barrel me as often. (for a check/calldown to be worthwhile)

In hand 3 when you, kpr16, say that you tend to call more then you fold do you mean all the way? or just call a flop bet to see if he follows up on the turn? Actually hand 2 and hand 3 is quite alike. The difference being that we are 6 players at the second table and 3 people at the first one. And that there are even more draws and potential hits for our villain at the second one. So a check/raise is even more hopeless as is a check/call. The fold button looks good though. Actually this is a board were I would have liked to be in the lead. (i.e reraised pre flop)

In hand 4 we seem to be in agreement. Just thinking what would happen if i 3bet this hand (having a 13% equity edge against his raise) and then check/called down post flop anyways. Because him being so aggressive with a lot of bad hands (maniac) I could count on him to bet anyways. Actually I could even get a river bet from him playing this way. Since he would realize on the river that he couldn´t win a showdown with an Ax or Kx if i reraised pre flop.

In hand 5 two impulses collided on the turn since I usually check/call after being called on the flop on a very drawy and dangerous board but on the other hand do like to continuation bet when the turn pairs (since i often get folds with the turn pairing). I think check/call turn is probably a better play unless you would welcome him to bluff raise turn (yummy!). I think bet/fold is out of the question though.

In hand 6 I agree that the flop (and other streets) would be easier to play if I just called pre flop. Him raising me on this board even though i 3bet pre flop leads me to believe he´s got a piece. (since he is not a maniac) Because most ok/good players know that you are a lot less likely to a succeed with a semibluff or a freecard play against a pre flop 3bettor (at least I do) since the pot is now bigger and I am even more likely to have a premium hand.

[kpr16]

In response to Skrotnisse,

I'm probably more showdown bound than anyone else in this thread (so far), and it's a result of my game evolving and trying to play more Game Theory Optimal.

A lot of these hands become very complex if you're looking to make the best situational play. You'd definitely have to weigh a lot of factors, and your response would still be speculative usually, as you can only ballpark assumptions.


I hate donk bets, I never make them anymore HU, unless it's at the river, so I'm a bit biased in response to "why not donk?"... I think it's worth noting that some of the best LHE players in the world consider it a very fishy move and sub-optimal. That said, I can think of situations where it makes sense... and god knows it can tilt people.

So, would I fold after calling twice? Very rarely. I do think it's reasonable to go really deep with some hands and fold occasionally to encourage your opponent to keep bluffing and balancing your range. You should be folding a certain percentage of your bluff catchers on each street. How do you apply that correctly? If I knew I'd be playing 200/400.

When I choose to call the flop with a pair, I usually plan to go to a showdown unless the board gets awful, or I've decided to exploit a weak/tight/passive player. So in hands 2 and 3, maybe you can call and fold more each street as more draws get there. For example in hand 3, the Kc, Qc, 8c, are pretty damn bad cards for us to see on the turn or river, so I'd likely fold the turn if one of those came... (but by the river I might actually call more than I would on the turn if those cards hit, since we can now look at price of the street by itself).

I don't see how being in the lead helps us in hand 3. Getting raised after 3-betting is going to be a bitch on that board.

3-betting preflop DOES make a lot of sense against people that you described, who fold way too much post flop. Then I think you should do it as often as you can get away with it!

I don't know how Matt will feel responding to so many hands, but MY advice is to take HIS advice on this stuff.

[Willem]

[mmatros]

I was asked to comment--and so I shall.

I don't ever three-bet out of the BB heads-up, for a lot of the same reasons that have been discussed in this thread. Also, I would never fold a pocket pair from the big blind for one bet. Finally, I check every flop after calling the raise preflop from the BB heads-up. I leak no information by playing this way.

1) I would just check-fold that flop.

2) I'd check-call that all the way down. You have some small chance of getting a better hand to fold by playing aggressively, but I think that value is offset by the value of inducing bluffs, and the value of losing less against a hand like JJ (who may check behind at some point).

3) I'd check-call the flop and reevaluate on the turn, sometimes check-calling the whole way.

4) I play it the way you did.

5) I would call pre, check-call the flop and turn, and lead the river.

6) I would call pre, and check-call the flop. Playing it the way you did, I would not fold the flop getting 9.5-1.

Best,
Matt

[Fenris78]

I have to think about more about this, but on first sight I truly love the idea of never 3betting headsup in the BB but check-raise the flop instead. By playing AA like this you don't give up too much value preflop, because he will bet the flop anyway if you check to him, so he will put in 3SB regardless. Only if he would cap preflop and bet the flop if you check to him will you give up value. But this is probably offset by the money you gain from the deception of just calling preflop. I think I will try this line in my next sessions to see how it feels. What might be a bit a bit difficult is playing AK or AQ like this, because you forfeit taking the initiative in the betting, so you will probably have to check-raise many flops that didn't give you a pair.

[Bugsbunny]

[Skrotnisse]

So this is good! Im learning a lot! Im inclined to agree but I do have some follow up questions to close the deal:

- Matt (and kpr16) you speak about just calling in the BB with your entire range. But isn´t there value in 3betting KQ-QJs hands since you can represent the Ace if it flops? Also with AA it seems like I would want to build a big pot pre flop to keep villain in? (and because of equity reasons) Is this just something your giving up on to mask your range as much as possible?

- How would you play AK - KQ on the flop? Would you check/raise a J74 rainbow flop? How about if the flop was 2 suited? Or AQ on a K93 flop?

- Also if this is your standard play would you still deviate from it if for instance the raiser is weak tight and gives up on many pots post flop if you 3bet pre flop.

[Fenris78]

Very good questions, Skrot. Really interested in the answers. I already have an idea why 3betting KQ or QJ to represent an A isn't necessary: First, you can check-raise representing an ace, second, most hi stakes players are much more showdown bound, so even if an A flops it might be difficult to make them lay down a worse hand than K hi.

[mmatros]