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superwomble
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Dover, Kent, UK
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 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: Pocket rockets |
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How would you play this hand, and what do you do at the end? What has Villain got do you think? No stats on him as he's only just joined the table.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)
UTG ($22.90)
UTG+1 ($65.05)
MP1 ($50.70)
MP2 ($48.50)
Villain ($47.30)
Button ($39.25)
Hero ($41.10)
BB ($8.95)
Preflop: Hero is SB with  ,  .
4 folds, Villain calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.50, Villain calls $0.50.
I'm down a bit for the evening so I don't want to raise and just get the blinds plus the limp, I want at least one caller to try and get some winnings. Probably a bit of unconcious tilt there...
Flop: ($3.25)  ,  ,  (3 players)
Hero bets $2, BB folds, Villain calls $2.
Hmm, possible straight here. Bet smallish thinking a call could indicate a straight draw, whereas a raise and I'm probably mucking.
Turn: ($7.25)  (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Villain calls $3.
A blank, so still considering the straight draw I bet just under half the pot again.
River: ($13.25)  (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Villain raises to $15, Hero ? |
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Neilis
1K Club
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1126
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Pocket rockets |
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| superwomble wrote: |
Hero ($41.10)
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Buy in full preflop.
You min-raised aces after the button limped. Why?
It doesn't matter why, there's no good reasons for this. It's horrible. You should be making it at very least $2.50 here.
| Quote: | | I'm down a bit for the evening so I don't want to raise and just get the blinds plus the limp, I want at least one caller to try and get some winnings. Probably a bit of unconcious tilt there... |
Oh okay. It's still horrible. Roughly the only worse thing you could do with your aces is fold. Make a real raise. Next time you consider min-raising aces you should slap yourself.
| Quote: |
Flop: ($3.25) ]Hero bets $2, BB folds, Villain calls $2.
Hmm, possible straight here. Bet smallish thinking a call could indicate a straight draw, whereas a raise and I'm probably mucking. |
First you don't make a real raise and now you're paranoid someone flopped the nuts on you. This isn't looking all that good. I actually don't mind how you played this street, but I'd have bet at least $2.50.
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Turn: ($7.25)
Hero bets $3, Villain calls $3.
A blank, so still considering the straight draw I bet just under half the pot again.
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This bet is not big enough. Betting less than half the pot doesn't really give villain that much chance to make a mistake because most likely you're going to be hard pressed to fold on the river and you give him perfectly reasonable implied odds.
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River: ($13.25)
Hero bets $5, Villain raises to $15, Hero ?
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You're losing. You bet three streets (even though they were wimpy bets) and someone who you have no read on (and therefore you have to assume he's decent) waited until the river to pop you with a raise. He probably has two pair. Quite likely he even rivered two pair. On the other hand you're getting pretty decent odds to call - $10 into a $33 pot or something so you probably have to look him up.
I think check-call the river is probably better because it's hard to bet 3 streets on a relatively coordinated board and get called by something that an overpair doesn't lose to. This might be slightly less true when you make weak-ass bets like this though.
Look this is a harsh call but generally if I saw someone play aces like this on one of my tables I'd be pretty happy to have them on my table. Preflop is horrible and your bet sizing postflop is weak.
Again harsh, but if you got outflopped you deserved it and you lost too much on the river. If you got rivered you deserved that too and you lost too much on the river.
Wow I'm mean tonight. I almost deleted this post after I read it. But then I decided it needed saying. You played this hand pretty bad. Obviously I mean this in the most constructive way possible.
Raise properly preflop
Never minraise preflop
Continuation bet bigger - people don't respect bets this small
When you bet the turn it should generally be more than half the pot |
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emmapeel
2K Club
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Min-raising pre-flop makes the hand tough to play. I'm usually happy to win anything with AA without losing my stack.
The only worry on the flop is the straight or two pair. All the set hands would normally raise pre-flop from the cut-off. I'm certainly not mucking to a re-raise on the flop with so little being ahead of my hand.
I might bet bigger on the turn. Sometimes I check here but I think this is a bet for me.
On the river I think most likely better hand is the straight. The queen shouldn't have made any difference so it looks like villain has slowplayed something if he is indeed ahead.
I'm happy to call on the river though as I'm sure this might be a bluff from villain or something weaker often enough.
EP |
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emmapeel
2K Club
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Wow Neilis is really harsh there.
I agree that check-calling the river might be best. This is more likely to induce a bluff from something like 56 than a small bet and it saves money against better hands.
I don't think the min-raise pre-flop is beyond experimentation though. Hero is guaranteed only two opponents and one of them is crippled. I would guess that it has to be mixed in with some strategy for it to be a good play though.
I disagree that min-raising is always bad pre-flop. You can bet what you like on the turn too; depends what works.
Not too bad a result if Hero lost only half a stack with AA on a safe looking board.
EP |
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janeg
Regina Canada
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 5103
Location: Somewhere down the crazy river
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Pocket rockets |
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| superwomble wrote: | How would you play this hand, and what do you do at the end? What has Villain got do you think? No stats on him as he's only just joined the table.
Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
4 folds, Villain calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.50, Villain calls $0.50.
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You may have no read on Villian but the first thing he does is limp first in from the CO. Right off have to think he is weak; what would a decent player limp with here? Would a decent player try to trap with a big hand then, once you make your small raise, simply call? Would a decent player limp a middle pocket pair? Ax? The PF limp and call .are telegraphing weakness.
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I'm down a bit for the evening so I don't want to raise and just get the blinds plus the limp, I want at least one caller to try and get some winnings. Probably a bit of unconcious tilt there... |
Yes you want at least one caller, but you also want their call to be a mistake. Villain limped, he's already leaning weak. Most weak players in this spot feel honour bound to call a normal re-raise. You're letting the BB in too cheaply and what's worse, you're out of position and stuck between two opponents; you're making your positional disadvantage worse.
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Flop: ($3.25) , , (3 players)
Hero bets $2, BB folds, Villain calls $2.
Hmm, possible straight here. Bet smallish thinking a call could indicate a straight draw, whereas a raise and I'm probably mucking.
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Making a smallish raise does not encourage him to make a mistake with a weak hand; it gives him odds to call profitably with a wide range of hands.
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Turn: ($7.25) (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Villain calls $3.
A blank, so still considering the straight draw I bet just under half the pot again.
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Again, all you're doing is encouraging him to call correctly vs calling incorrectly.
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River: ($13.25) (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Villain raises to $15, Hero ? |
And now you're in a spot where you pretty much have to call getting getting 3:1. Your smallish bets PF, on the F and on the T have bought you no information other than he likes his hand well enough to call down. Now he's probably hit something, but what? Can you really fold AA here?
Don't mean to be harsh, you were thinking at the table but were you thinking clearly? That's the hard part when subtle tilt kicks in; you convince yourself defensive thinking is clear thinking. And you end up at the river with no more information than you had pre-flop. You have AA, what does villian have? |
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dankimball
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 277
Location: arkansas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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WHAT NEILIS SAID  |
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BigViking
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 540
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, this wasn't great. Neilis covered it.
| Quote: | | On the river I think most likely better hand is the straight. The queen shouldn't have made any difference so it looks like villain has slowplayed something if he is indeed ahead. |
Emma, in this hand he could have either a draw or a made hand, right? The only draw he could have is 56. You really don't see many players at this level capable of turning a made hand (some one pair hand) into a bluff on this river. He doesn't raise any worse hands for value. Then you're left with a bluff (basically only 56) or a better hand. To say that the Q didn't change anything is just wrong. QJ plays exactly like this and is a somewhat likely hand. No way that the river call is +EV. |
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emmapeel
2K Club
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: |
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QJ normally will raise from the CO pre-flop which makes this hand less likely for me. I suppose it's possible, along with Q8s or Q7s though so it is possible the Q made a difference. Maybe queens up should be counted as more likely mainly due to the lack of other explaination for the re-raise.
I do agree that it is hard to see a lot of hands like 98 re-raise on the river as they already have a chance to win with the pair without re-raising.
I'm definitely calling on the river though as things look a bit odd. We have been betting small all the way so I would guess a re-raise will have a wider range because of this.
EP |
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BigViking
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 540
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm definitely calling on the river though as things look a bit odd. We have been betting small all the way so I would guess a re-raise will have a wider range because of this. |
So give me a hand range that you can see him making this river play with and we're beating. |
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emmapeel
2K Club
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| BigViking wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm definitely calling on the river though as things look a bit odd. We have been betting small all the way so I would guess a re-raise will have a wider range because of this. |
So give me a hand range that you can see him making this river play with and we're beating. |
I can't think of one, that's why I'm calling
The thing is that I'm finding it hard to think of a better hand range as well. I agree that villain is probably better here but we only need 25% wins to make the call.
Folding here looks too tight for me, especially after we've bet smallish all the way.
EP |
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Neilis
1K Club
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1126
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| emmapeel wrote: |
I can't think of one, that's why I'm calling
EP |
We shall now call you Daniel Peel? Or perhaps Emma Negreanu?  |
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superwomble
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Dover, Kent, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. I knew straightaway I'd played this hand badly so was interested in critique of it, plus it's a very good example to anyone as to why you should not limp/min-raise with Aces!
I eventually called, and was gutted to see 10 9 of clubs for the straight. Of course, there is the chance that Villain wouldn't have folded this to a proper raise, in which case I actually saved money... |
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