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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 426
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 Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Play along: NL200 hand, adjusting to villain |
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This post is probably more about how to abuse the hell out of pt3/holdem manager and notes on players than anything else. But it may be interesting because I notice a lot of people play extremely straightforward in these spots, and may not adjust well to villains in question.
One important thing to mention before though: This is a situation where a solid, winning and thinking regular is involved. If he was a standard straightforward player, standard straightforward plays may be the best option.
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($433.80)
UTG+1 ($243.00)
CO ($254.00)
BTN ($209.00)
Hero ($200.00)
BB ($133.70)
Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB X X
3 folds, BTN raises to $7, $6 to Hero ($199)?
So what is the situation so far: I've sat at this table for an orbit or so, but villain is a regular and played often vs me. He knows I am capable of 3betting light from these spots.
What do we know about villain with a decent sample size:
- He plays 29/23, attempt to steal 33%
- He opens 50% from the button first in
- He calls 3bets 50% of the time on average, so even more when in-position.
- He 4bets 13% of the time
Knowing this, with what kinda hands do you 3bet him preflop?
What hands do you call with?
What do you do in this spot with hands like 22-55?
What do you do in this spot with KQo and KQs?
I'll explain my thought process after a few replies and post the next step. |
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BigViking
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 540
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| It's kinda important here to know how he plays in 3-bet pots. |
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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It's kinda important here to know how he plays in 3-bet pots. |
So far he folded to 35% of the cbets in total, in 3bet pots I have not seen him fold to a cbet that often. It's a mix of calling and raising generally.
In short, he won't fold TT on a flop with a single overcard directly, and he may bluffraise a rag board with QJ etc or float with it. Further, when he's the PFR, he always cbets 3bet pots and cbets 78% of normal raised pots. |
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BigViking
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 540
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| So it sounds like he's a decent player. If he's the overaggro type which will fire multiple barrels, I guess calling all of these is ok. If not, I'd 3-bet all of them or fold except KQ which I think I'd pretty much never fold. Whether I'd 3-bet or fold depends a lot on what's happened between you two the last 20-50 hands. Whether you've been quiet and would get a little more respect when 3-betting or whether you've been bombing him constantly and he's just looking to play back. In that case, I'd fold all the small pockets and call with KQ to keep in dominated hands and c/r a flop where you hit TP unless it's super-drawy. |
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dan_man555
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| One of the main qualities of an effective player is unpredictability. You should worry less about how you should modify your play to suit other players, and concentrate on playing your best game. |
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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You should worry less about how you should modify your play to suit other players, and concentrate on playing your best game. |
This does not make much sense, because playing my best game depends on exploiting what I can about other player's tendencies. Villain in question is not a fish, so straightforward handranges for continueing here don't apply either.
| Quote: | | Whether I'd 3-bet or fold depends a lot on what's happened between you two the last 20-50 hands. |
I agree with that, but I've played vs him quite often in the last weeks that I think my image is already set vs him. He knows I 3bet light at times, and will adjust to it, but he seems to do so vs most regs.
| Quote: | | I'd fold all the small pockets and call with KQ to keep in dominated hands and c/r a flop where you hit TP unless it's super-drawy. |
Interesting, I agree with folding all small pairs vs this person, since they do not have enough implied odds here vs his complete range, and when bluffraising flops, why not do so with hands with more than 2 outs? But I disagree with the last part.
If villain folds to 3bets only 50% of the time, and 4bets 13% of the time, that means a large part of his range are hands he will call with.
The stats this player shows is quite common at this limit. Which means someone opens a lot of buttons, but defends vs light 3bets by calling with decent hands, or rather, hands which are playable in position.
In my mind it's still quite a mistake to defend that light vs most light 3betters even, but still, when I'm in the blinds here, and I hold a hand here like KQ as was the situation here, what is the expected result should I 3bet?
The key factor here is that this is the kind of player who will call with hands that KQ dominates and will 4bet hands that dominate it and some other large PP's.
When people fold dominated hands to 3bets calling here is standard, but in this case, I think this is a clear situation to 3bet for value since villain is not going to fold QT, QJ, KTs etc to me in general.
In short, vs a player who calls 3bets quite often IP, I think when 3betting is considered, a value based 3betting range is needed here. If you want to expand that range, you should 3bet more hands which dominate some of the hands he'll call with, but 3betting with a polarized range would be suicide.
I think this preflop situation is interesting because these kind of players are quite common at NL200, but people just adjust terribly to them. Solid regulars just keep 3betting them with hands like deuces, A5s etc, instead of putting more pressure on them with a value based range.
Here's the next step;
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($433.80)
UTG+1 ($243.00)
CO ($254.00)
BTN ($209.00)
Hero ($200.00)
BB ($133.70)
Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB  
3 folds, BTN raises to $7, Hero raises to $24, 1 fold, BTN calls $17
Flop:    ($50, 2 players)
Hero ($176)? |
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BigViking
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 540
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Right, I didn't really read your OP too carefully so I didn't see him defending against 3-bets so lightly. 3-betting KQs is obviously ok when he's caling so much. In fact he's calling way too much... From your description of the Villain, it looks like you're trying to get the money in here. So how to play it again depends on what he's seen from you before in 3-bet pots. I'd bet here no matter what, but how much to bet depends on how he's going to interpret your bet. Against someone as aggro as him, I'd bet a little more than half pot and shove over a raise.
| Quote: | Quote:
Whether I'd 3-bet or fold depends a lot on what's happened between you two the last 20-50 hands.
I agree with that, but I've played vs him quite often in the last weeks that I think my image is already set vs him. |
You should really pay attention to flow of the game and what's happened recently. Even though he knows you're capable of 3-betting light, he'll notice whether you been doing it a lot lately or not. |
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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Against someone as aggro as him, I'd bet a little more than half pot and shove over a raise. |
This is my standard line here, and I think also the optimal line vs someone like him. I do however think betting or checking should not be based on hand strength alone vs someone who rarely folds in 3bet pots, but rather on ranges.
Cbetting every single flop vs him is throwing money away, unless I use a much tighter 3betting range. What this means is that I also have to check a decent amount of the time.
With this hand I obviously want to bet, and will get it in here if possible, but this is a decent board to mix it up on. The reason being that if he has a strong draw he would have gotten the money in anyways on this flop, and if I check to him, he will be betting all his strong draws, and weak draws like 9T most of the time, and all his air. So my line is here to cbet slightly larger than half pot around 80% of the time (even while I want to cbet more, I expect cbetting a bit less gives him more room to semi-bluff) and check-raising about 10% of the time and check-calling about 10% of the time. Which is the option I took here.
I'll skip directly to the river since check-calling the flop and leading the turn is not really part of my game when I'm the PFR, even though I think it's an interesting option on this turn. vs an aggressive opponent like him, how do you feel about betting 1/3rd pot on the turn? The way I play my hand makes absolutely no sense to him then, so it gives him room to do something stupid.
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($433.80)
UTG+1 ($243.00)
CO ($254.00)
BTN ($209.00)
Hero ($200.00)
BB ($133.70)
Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB
3 folds, BTN raises to $7, Hero raises to $24, 1 fold, BTN calls $17
Flop: ($50, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $28, Hero calls $28
Turn:  ($106, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks
River:  ($106, 2 players)
Hero ($148)?
Because my unorthodox play in this hand, what is the range that I represent here to villain? Other than that, what is the range from villain you want to target on this river? And if you bet here, how much are you betting and what will you do if you get shoved on? |
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BigViking
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 540
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This is my standard line here, and I think also the optimal line vs someone like him. I do however think betting or checking should not be based on hand strength alone vs someone who rarely folds in 3bet pots, but rather on ranges. |
Right, but your range for rr I would guess hit this flop quite often. He's defending to 3-bets way too often and would do it with lots of pps that should fold this flop a decent amount and if not, can't stand a second barrel. I agree you can't c-bet every time, but on this flop I'd bet with my whole range more or less. Anyway, if you're playing this guy a lot, it's ok to do completely weird things now and then to confuse him.
| Quote: | | Because my unorthodox play in this hand, what is the range that I represent here to villain? Other than that, what is the range from villain you want to target on this river? And if you bet here, how much are you betting and what will you do if you get shoved on? |
Well, you're obviously targeting his air which is a big part of his range. I like a 1/3 pot bet and snap calling. That way your hand looks like a J/TT or something weak which means you HAVE to call against this guy. |
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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Right, but your range for rr I would guess hit this flop quite often. |
True, but it's not always that strong. It's just something I do with a decent frequency so people start to know they can't win the pot every time I check to them.
| Quote: | | Well, you're obviously targeting his air which is a big part of his range. I like a 1/3 pot bet and snap calling. That way your hand looks like a J/TT or something weak which means you HAVE to call against this guy. |
I like that, and really hated my betsize afterwards. I ended up betting 2/3rd pot since my line made little sense here and I hoped he would be suspicious and call me with second or third pair, which worked by him calling me with 3rd pair. But if I had bet smaller here he just has to put me on a AJ/TT or something, has to realize his third pair has 0 showdown value, which gives him the option to either bluffraise me here or fold, which probably works much better in the long run.
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($433.80)
UTG+1 ($243.00)
CO ($254.00)
BTN ($209.00)
Hero ($200.00)
BB ($133.70)
Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB
3 folds, BTN raises to $7, Hero raises to $24, 1 fold, BTN calls $17
Flop: ($50, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $28, Hero calls $28
Turn: ($106, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks
River: ($106, 2 players)
Hero bets $63, BTN calls $63
Final Pot: $232
BTN shows:  
Hero shows:
Hero wins $229 ( won +$114 )
BTN lost -$115.00 |
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BigViking
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 540
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, nice hand. Not so sure he's good anymore  |
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blah730235
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I know i'm bringing up an older thread here but I had a question:
| Quote: | | This is a situation where a solid, winning and thinking regular is involved |
| Quote: | | - He opens 50% from the button first in |
Aren't some of these numbers almost irelevant? A solid thinking player is going to adjust his button opening range based on who's in the blinds. The numbers let us know he opens wide but I think his actual range from the button in this spot is probably dirastactly different then his overall button opening range. Also I think your notes on the big blind are very important here as button's range should also adjust for that. Is the bb a 10/8 nit? Villan should be opening wider if he is. |
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toronexti
53o
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 4095
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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you didnt really talk about this but how does villian react to a c/r on flop after you call PF?
I don't actually like checking this flop if he raises/floats a lot. This flop will have missed you often enough that I think he'd raise or float quite often. KJx flops don't hit too many hands too hard.
| Quote: | | I'll skip directly to the river since check-calling the flop and leading the turn is not really part of my game when I'm the PFR, even though I think it's an interesting option on this turn. vs an aggressive opponent like him, how do you feel about betting 1/3rd pot on the turn? The way I play my hand makes absolutely no sense to him then, so it gives him room to do something stupid. |
If you bet 1/3 I'd be a bit confused but if you bet more like 1/2 pot I'd put you on basically exactly what you have since it looks like you're trying to protect vs the draw.
The way you played this a $63 bet on the river is 1 of 2 things in my mind, either something like AQ which is trying to fold out the small pairs or something like Jx/Kx trying to get value. I never put you on a draw on the flop since I think a draw c/r or con't bets every time. So you either have air or a weak 1-pair hand. It's close enough that I'd probably call with 97 here also.
I personally much prefer a con't bet by you on this flop, especially since you're willing to get it in against a raise. |
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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty interesting reply Toronexti.
| Quote: | | you didnt really talk about this but how does villian react to a c/r on flop after you call PF? |
He's going to continue with the hand then with all his kings, his good jacks I think so hands like AJ, hands that beat those and nut flush draws/combo draws.
| Quote: | | I don't actually like checking this flop if he raises/floats a lot. This flop will have missed you often enough that I think he'd raise or float quite often. KJx flops don't hit too many hands too hard. |
vs a player like this I get owned if I cbet any board, and this one just looks too good to not cbet and he knows that, which is also why I would cbet here like 80% of the time with a hand like KQ, but less often with air. But when I choose to cbet here, either with air or a legitimate hand, I have to fire 2 barrels all the time. Firing one, and check-folding afterwards is going to get me killed.
| Quote: | | Aren't some of these numbers almost irelevant? A solid thinking player is going to adjust his button opening range based on who's in the blinds. The numbers let us know he opens wide but I think his actual range from the button in this spot is probably dirastactly different then his overall button opening range. Also I think your notes on the big blind are very important here as button's range should also adjust for that. Is the bb a 10/8 nit? Villan should be opening wider if he is. |
This is somewhat true but most of the better players at the limit play 8+ tables, and will adjust somewhat based on table dynamics, but generally, preflop ranges don't really seem to change that much, especially on the button, except when there is an aggro 20BB stack in the blinds.
For instance, some regulars open a shitload of hands from the SB when folded around to them, yet even if the player in the BB loves the 1 situation in NL where the BB is last to act both preflop and postflop and abuses the hell out of it, some of those players still open way too much junk and refuse to adjust.
| Quote: | | The way you played this a $63 bet on the river is 1 of 2 things in my mind, either something like AQ which is trying to fold out the small pairs or something like Jx/Kx trying to get value. I never put you on a draw on the flop since I think a draw c/r or con't bets every time. So you either have air or a weak 1-pair hand. It's close enough that I'd probably call with 97 here also. |
Yep, I never have a draw there, but the way I play it it looks like a weak one-pair hand which is pot controlling. Because of that, I preferred a smaller river bet afterwards to induce him into turning his hands that have almost no showdown value into a bluff.
But why would I ever check-call on the flop with AQ? I may cbet and two-barrel most turns, sometimes checkfold, sometimes checkraise. Further AQ got blockers for almost any draw that continues here, so cbetting is probably best.
While my river bet seems like marginal pair/air, I really think this would be a terrible flop to check-call with air/draws, so I really do not see how there can be any air in my range here. |
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blah730235
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | This is somewhat true but most of the better players at the limit play 8+ tables, and will adjust somewhat based on table dynamics, but generally, preflop ranges don't really seem to change that much, especially on the button, except when there is an aggro 20BB stack in the blinds.
For instance, some regulars open a shitload of hands from the SB when folded around to them, yet even if the player in the BB loves the 1 situation in NL where the BB is last to act both preflop and postflop and abuses the hell out of it, some of those players still open way too much junk and refuse to adjust. |
Hm... that's really interesting, I did read a little bit about this in your blog. I guess i assumed that because my range for opening on the button can be anywheres from 30% to 100% that most players adjust their ranges this much as well. |
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