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jeffnc
Mason's Favorite
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 7222
Location: NC, USA
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 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: Piemaster article - Is Poker Gambling |
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I understand Pie's basic point, that there is an element of both skill and luck in poker, as it is with many games.
"At the other end of the scale, games like Snakes and Ladders and Roulette are 100 percent luck. Most games fall somewhere in between. Where exactly on the scale poker falls is not really important. The point is that it is futile to attempt to divide games into “games of luck” and “games of skill”, because nearly all games have elements of both. Consequently, arguing whether a game is gambling purely on the basis of whether it is or isn’t a game of chance is somewhat flawed."
I can't agree completely with the conclusion, because as you mentioned roulette is 100% luck. So is slots. So clearly we can separate casino games that are all luck and those that are not.
This doesn't appear to be the most important distinction though. For example, in craps the knowledgable (skilled) player will lose less money than the unskilled player. But the point is, everyone will lose money at craps.
The important distinction to me is: can a skilled player win a game? This is a much more relevant question than trying to draw the line somewhere with regard to what element luck plays. There is luck in golf, there is luck in poker, there is luck in craps. But the point is, skillful players can win in golf and in poker. The skillful player cannot win in craps.
So we should distinguish between gambling pursuits that can be won and those that can't. This is much more relevant than determining if it is simply gambling or not.
A professional golf tournament is quite the same as a professional poker tournament. The best players have the best chance of winning through skill. You can lose money at both (tournaments require an entry fee, and players typically incur expenses that must be overcome by winnings to be profitable. The "house" always wins (the PGA Tour is profitable, for example). The majority of players in both tournaments lose money on any given day.
"What about the wholesome American past time of stock market trading? In essence, this is exactly the same as poker."
It's not really the same as poker because not only can a skilled investor win, but everyone can win. That's because the stock market goes up over time. Everyone can win by simply investing in a stock market index. It's not a zero sum game. The casino takes a rake, but otherwise poker is zero sum. Trading firms take a commission, but everyone can overcome it, and the game is not otherwise zero sum. Yes, the stock market is gambling, but that's not really the point, and it's not really the point with poker either, IMO.
And that's just with respect to the way current laws are written. At the end of the day I think it should all be a moot point anyway, because I think any form of gambling should be allowed for people to choose from in a free country. |
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Piemaster
Author of THE POKER MINDSET
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 6916
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Piemaster article - Is Poker Gambling |
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| jeffnc wrote: |
This doesn't appear to be the most important distinction though. For example, in craps the knowledgable (skilled) player will lose less money than the unskilled player. But the point is, everyone will lose money at craps.
The important distinction to me is: can a skilled player win a game? This is a much more relevant question than trying to draw the line somewhere with regard to what element luck plays. There is luck in golf, there is luck in poker, there is luck in craps. But the point is, skillful players can win in golf and in poker. The skillful player cannot win in craps. |
Of course that is an important distinction, but not terribly relevant to the question of whether or not poker is gambling. I am sure legislators acknowledge that you can win at poker through skill. They probably acknowledge that you can win at Blackjack and sports betting through skill as well. There were two real points to this article:
1. To provide my take on the age-old 'is poker gambling' question.
2. In light of the recent legislation, to illustrate that those trying to get an exemption for poker on the grounds that it isn't gambling that they are barking up the wrong tree.
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So we should distinguish between gambling pursuits that can be won and those that can't. This is much more relevant than determining if it is simply gambling or not. |
For a skilled player yes. For a recreational player or a legislator I don't see why it makes a difference.
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A professional golf tournament is quite the same as a professional poker tournament. The best players have the best chance of winning through skill. You can lose money at both (tournaments require an entry fee, and players typically incur expenses that must be overcome by winnings to be profitable. The "house" always wins (the PGA Tour is profitable, for example). The majority of players in both tournaments lose money on any given day. |
I agree. In many ways that was one of the points of the article (although I didn't use the golf example specifically).
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"What about the wholesome American past time of stock market trading? In essence, this is exactly the same as poker."
It's not really the same as poker because not only can a skilled investor win, but everyone can win. That's because the stock market goes up over time. Everyone can win by simply investing in a stock market index. It's not a zero sum game. The casino takes a rake, but otherwise poker is zero sum. Trading firms take a commission, but everyone can overcome it, and the game is not otherwise zero sum. Yes, the stock market is gambling, but that's not really the point, and it's not really the point with poker either, IMO. |
But it was the point of the article  |
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jeffnc
Mason's Favorite
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 7222
Location: NC, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Piemaster article - Is Poker Gambling |
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| Piemaster wrote: | | Of course that is an important distinction, but not terribly relevant to the question of whether or not poker is gambling. |
I wasn't really disagreeing with the article as much as I was giving me opinion that legislators are asking the wrong question, which you probably agree with. |
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Piemaster
Author of THE POKER MINDSET
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 6916
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Piemaster article - Is Poker Gambling |
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| jeffnc wrote: | | Piemaster wrote: | | Of course that is an important distinction, but not terribly relevant to the question of whether or not poker is gambling. |
I wasn't really disagreeing with the article as much as I was giving me opinion that legislators are asking the wrong question, which you probably agree with. |
Absolutely |
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AlamedaMike
2K Club
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 2042
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Is gambling bad (for you or for society)? Is playing poker bad for you? Is gambling immoral and does anyone have a say whether you should spend your money playing poker or some other such thing?
The US legislators tried to regulate morals which in my opinion is none of their business.
If a person spends money on poker, on golf, on craps, on bowling, on stock trading that he should spend on his family then I think (personally) that is 1) none of my business and 2) wrong none the less.
What people do with their money is their business. If they want to play poker or play golf it is their business.
So is playing poker bad gambling? for someone that can never win it might be if they can not afford to lose the money.
It is interesting and the people that are trying to outlaw online poker might think that they are protecting people but I think that they are not minding their own business and addressing the problem the wrong way. |
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darvon
BCS Neutral
Joined: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 5315
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| AlamedaMike wrote: | | Is gambling bad (for you or for society)? Is playing poker bad for you? Is gambling immoral and does anyone have a say whether you should spend your money playing poker or some other such thing?. |
At least my definition of "immoral" IS exactly what a person believes is "bad for society" or at least bad enough to publicly denounce.
| Quote: | | The US legislators tried to regulate morals which in my opinion is none of their business. |
Absolutely disagree. THE decision of someone voting to make something illegal is balancing the IMMORALITY of the act with the loss of freedom of making it illegal. Murder is immoral. Theft is immoral. Killing spotted owls is immoral (sort of). Each is made illegal because of their negative impact on society.
| Quote: | | If a person spends money on poker, on golf, on craps, on bowling, on stock trading that he should spend on his family then I think (personally) that is 1) none of my business and 2) wrong none the less. |
Yep. But the representatives of the Majority of the US voters didn't agree with you. I personally think it is not wrong, and also not worth loss of freedom. It IS my business because people want to legislate in this matter. Anything which a reasonable portion of voters want to fiddle with IS my business to protect.
| Quote: | What people do with their money is their business. If they want to play poker or play golf it is their business.
So is playing poker bad gambling? for someone that can never win it might be if they can not afford to lose the money.
It is interesting and the people that are trying to outlaw online poker might think that they are protecting people but I think that they are not minding their own business and addressing the problem the wrong way |
Protecting people is ALWAYS not minding your own business.
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AlamedaMike
2K Club
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 2042
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Some nice replies Darvon - I guess that I was looking at it from too close. But where do you draw the line?
We know that the law is there to protect the citizens and without the law there can be no justice.
Some would argue that some drugs should be legal as in other countries.
I want to be protected from criminals. But to say that the lottery and sports betting are legal online but to say that poker is illegal online because it is gambling is a strange reasoning.
The US outlawed alcohol during the prohibition and that did not work. But, I am not sure if it was because they thought it was immoral or some other reasons that related to money.
I think my point was is that I do not want my freedoms infringed upon. But, one man's junk is another man's treasure.
I think that poker, gambling or not is not bad for you, but the US legislature is saying that gambling online is bad.
Mr Pie's article was addressing is poker gambling? If online poker was rigged then I would agree that it should be outlawed. Live poker is legal some places in the US. |
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