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Over pair on 3flush flop becomes 2nd pair after turned A

 
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Pentahouve



Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 355
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Over pair on 3flush flop becomes 2nd pair after turned A Reply with quote

I'm having a little trouble with the following situation. It's come up a few times recently and would appreciate some input. I've been in position in a raised pot when I have an overpair on a 3flush board without having that suit (usually QQ or KK). I've bet the flop then checked an A (off suit) turn so as to avoid being semi-bluffed off the best hand. I guess a lot of s/b c/r would be on the flop so maybe I'm checking for a cheap showdown and being too passive. I'd noticed that I'd got into the bad habit of always checking a turned Ace in position if I had a lower pair after being the pf raiser and have started firing a 2nd barrel on the turn but feel that it still might be the right move some of the time on a 3 flush (or otherwise co-ordinated board)....but....the other side of me is arguing that it's just this sort of board that I should be avoiding giving my opp. (this is just v. one player) the chance to draw out for free. How should I change the strategy against a passive or agg. opp?

I got myself into a tricky spot a little while ago when after the A hit the turn and I checked I was completely unsure what to do when the river brought the 4 flush and my opp bet into me. I ended up folding but was talking myself into calling as I'd shown weakness on the turn.
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xrosswind



Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 808
Location: North Wales

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually carry on and bet the turn when there are three flush cards on the board, I need to charge my opponent if they want to draw.
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mconstab



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Warwickshire, UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a spot where knowing your opponent really comes in handy but against all but the most aggressive opponents I'm betting the turn to protect against the 4th suit. If my pocket pair had one of the 3 flush suits in it then I may check call against an aggressive opponent as giving a free card does not hurt you and you can expect an aggressive opponent to take a shot at the turn ace with a weak draw or even air.

Against more observant opponents checking the ace on the turn kind of reveals your hand to be weaker than an ace so they can value town you a bit on the turn and river with a strong hand and check down a weaker hand or draw.

If I'm raised on the turn ace against a super passive then I'm folding. Against a TAG it could be a good spot to call the turn raise to then see If villain will fire again on the river and possibly fold to the river bet (again this is going to be quite read dependant). Against a LAG or maniac I'm pretty much seeing a showdown as long as the 4 flush doesn't come in.
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Pentahouve



Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 355
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xrosswind wrote:
I usually carry on and bet the turn when there are three flush cards on the board, I need to charge my opponent if they want to draw.


As this is a raised pot......either I open raised and was called by one of the blinds, or I 3bet an open raise.......I put an Ace in their range. It's due to being concerned that they may have called the flop with a good Ace or a FD. If it's still just a 3 flush and no overcard I'm always betting.


mconstab wrote:


Against more observant opponents checking the ace on the turn kind of reveals your hand to be weaker than an ace......

This is one of my main concerns.

mconstab wrote:

If I'm raised on the turn ace against a super passive then I'm folding. Against a TAG it could be a good spot to call the turn raise to then see If villain will fire again on the river and possibly fold to the river bet (again this is going to be quite read dependant). Against a LAG or maniac I'm pretty much seeing a showdown as long as the 4 flush doesn't come in.


This seems pretty sound advice.
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Willem
2K Club


Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2646
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Against very aggressive opponents, you might bet the turn and call down. But very aggressive opponents usually check-raise the flop on monotone boards. You are usually toast when you get check-raised on the turn here.

I think checking behind and calling any river (also a flush completing river) is best as a default line. I wouldn't worry too much about giving your hand away. If he has an ace (or a flush), you will lose that river bet anyway. It not like he can win more by you giving away information. And you can still bet the river if he checks there again (and call a raise). And you might induce a bluff sometimes. Some opponents cannot really help themselves and still bluff, even though your check really looks like a defensive check.
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mconstab



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Warwickshire, UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just noticed you wrote "in position" in the OP. Most of the advice I gave out was me thinking of the situation out of position (for example if you 3 bet from the SB against a BTN steal attempt).

In position I think Willem is right in that you can check this behind to snap off a bluff attempt and play it way ahead way behind. Betting the turn in position and being check raised would suck and would likely show more strength from the opponent as you can rule out a free showdown raise from them.
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Pentahouve



Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 355
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your replies.
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