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MtnWalker
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado
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 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: No-limit Hold'em Question, Matthew |
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Much is made of the fact that by varying bet size in NLH, one can deny proper drawing odds - to an open-ended straight or flush, for example (best simple odds). Given this, if a smart player always bets the proper amount, how can anyone with a draw ever call based upon pot odds versus drawing odds. And for that matter, how could a good player ever bet the proper amount if he has a draw?
So, why doesn't a good player make calling based on a draw the odds-against play on every flop? There must be a logic flaw in my thinking somewhere. Otherwise every hand post-flop (with competent players in the game) would correctly go bet/all-fold except for those with made hands.
Help? |
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Cactus52
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 21
Location: Atlanta, Phoenix, Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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I am not a pro by any mention of the word. But I believe you raise the proper amount not necessarily to take the pot, although thats not a bad conclusion, but you will force your opponent to make a mistake by calling. As you know the one who makes less mistakes generally comes out on top. I'm sure there are better explanations to come but thats my reason.
For What it's worth.........
Cactus52 |
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mchilger
ITH Founder and Poker Author
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 5804
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Given this, if a smart player always bets the proper amount, how can anyone with a draw ever call based upon pot odds versus drawing odds. |
Sometimes players draw for a few reasons:
1/ They hope to pick up the pot on the next street with the worst hand. Let's suppose that you think your opponent has a mediocre hand. You might call with poor pot odds with the intention of getting your opponent to fold when the turn card comes.
2/ Sometimes players can use scare cards on future streets to get their opponents to fold.
3/ They might think there is a possibility that they have the best hand. For example, A high is sometimes the best hand.
4/ Of course, implied pot odds is always very, very important in NL. If we reworded your question, a smart player could bet enough so that his opponent isn't getting good implied pot odds - but this is much more difficult to do with perfection since we don't always know how much we might commit.
[/quote]And for that matter, how could a good player ever bet the proper amount if he has a draw?[quote]
If you have a hand that is 2 to 1 to improve, then betting half the pot gives you the proper pot odds on a the bet, as long as you are not raised. Sometimes players will bet small in NL to try and minimize the cost of their draw as it is difficult sometimes for their opponents to raise.
| Quote: | | why doesn't a good player make calling based on a draw the odds-against play on every flop? |
This is what makes poker such a great game. First, realize that you rarely hit good flops. You can't win at NL without being able to bluff and semi-bluff successfully. Part of the strategy in your bet amounts is to try and allow you to maximize the pots when you have the best hand, while also being to bluff at pots with minimal cost. I could bet pot every time I have a made hand, but that makes my bluffs more expensive. If I bet 2/3 the pot most of the time, that will protect my hand against most draws, while allowing me to also bluff at pots with lower risk. You also don't always know whether you have the best hand or not.
Remember, Hold'em is not a one hand game either. What you do now allows you to do other things on future Hold'em hands.
Bottomline, trying to protect against every drawing hand is hard to do, especially when considering implied pot odds and your desire to bluff with some frequency. There are fine lines everywhere which is what makes the game quite difficult.
This question has many nuiances and I go write a chapter to answer the question but hopefully some of the above helps.
In my new book, there is a chapter titled Protecting Your Hand. I had difficulty with that chapter for the exact reason of your question - protecting your hand is not the only goal in Hold'em. It is just one consideration of many when trying to decide how much to bet.
Matthew |
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MtnWalker
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: Thanks All |
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| I learned several things here. Much appreciated. |
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