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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: misplayed hand? |
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Think I maybe played this bad. Raise flop and otherwise bet river right?
2/4 Limit Holdem
6 players
Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is BB  
4 folds, SB raises, Hero calls
Flop:    (4.0 SB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls
Turn:  (3.0 BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls
River:  (5.0 BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22429
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think you have to raise the flop, but you certainly could. I do think the river is a clear bet when he checks. |
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Willem
2K Club
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2650
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| I always raise the flop here to provide cover for my bluffs. As played, I bet the river. He will probably bet Jx and Ax, so he either has Tx also (for a split), or a worse pocket pair. No big deal if he folds. |
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mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 371
Location: Warwickshire, UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| If hero raised and villain 3 bet the flop, still standard call down with the same turn and river cards? FWIW it's standard for me SBvsBB. |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22429
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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I'd be more likely to raise the turn than the flop to "provide cover for my bluffs" because that is how I'd bluff.
If I raised the flop and got 3bet, I think you have to call down blind v blind. |
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Willem
2K Club
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2650
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | I'd be more likely to raise the turn than the flop to "provide cover for my bluffs" because that is how I'd bluff. |
Yeah, it obviously depends on your general strategy. Personally, I call the preflop raise with 100% of my range, then raise the flop if I hit good. I already delay my raise one street, delaying it for two streets is just FPS. (Although I still do it occasionally.) |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | nsidestrate wrote: | | I'd be more likely to raise the turn than the flop to "provide cover for my bluffs" because that is how I'd bluff. |
Yeah, it obviously depends on your general strategy. Personally, I call the preflop raise with 100% of my range, then raise the flop if I hit good. I already delay my raise one street, delaying it for two streets is just FPS. (Although I still do it occasionally.) |
Yeah, I saw KPR16 having that strategy too. How is that working for you? Wouldn´t it be better to have a 100% 3bet strategy in the BB then a 100% call? So that we make the pots bigger when we´re in position and smaller out of position. Also I´m wondering if 3betting doesn´t have a good psychological impact of SB getting less happy to steal with crap. And calling might have the opposite effect. Like "he´s never 3betting so I don´t feel like I´m getting punished to much with my SB steals"! I know that calling 100% implies a lot of restealing post flop but I´m not sure that it is as strong of a deterent.
Also I´m a bit uncertain how much of our totally missed hands that we need to resteal with post flop. Probably a lot huh? Otherwise we are not picking up the pots when both players flop nada. If opponents check/fold every hand that doesn´t flop a gutshot or overcards when we 3bet pre then that´s a lot of value we´re missing out on by calling. |
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mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 371
Location: Warwickshire, UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | nsidestrate wrote: | | I'd be more likely to raise the turn than the flop to "provide cover for my bluffs" because that is how I'd bluff. |
Yeah, it obviously depends on your general strategy. Personally, I call the preflop raise with 100% of my range, then raise the flop if I hit good. I already delay my raise one street, delaying it for two streets is just FPS. (Although I still do it occasionally.) |
I generally do the same thing. I'll just call the raise OOP and check raise favourable flops or try to pick off opponents bluffs post flop.
In position I'll cap pre flop with my stronger hands but not so strong that my range is polarized to big pockets etc. I'll often cap hands like 55 in position heads up to try and create some fold equity against certain opponents. It also allows me to get to showdown cheaper if needs be as your opponents are unlikely to play back at you so much when it's been capped pre.
It was actually KPR's post on here a while back that influenced my decision on this, as well as Deathdonkey's vids over at Deucescracked.
Last edited by mconstab on Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22429
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | nsidestrate wrote: | | I'd be more likely to raise the turn than the flop to "provide cover for my bluffs" because that is how I'd bluff. |
Yeah, it obviously depends on your general strategy. Personally, I call the preflop raise with 100% of my range, then raise the flop if I hit good. I already delay my raise one street, delaying it for two streets is just FPS. (Although I still do it occasionally.) |
I would only do it on a paired board. |
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Willem
2K Club
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2650
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Skrotnisse wrote: | | Wouldn´t it be better to have a 100% 3bet strategy in the BB then a 100% call? So that we make the pots bigger when we´re in position and smaller out of position. |
With villain betting every flop, you can delay the decision to increase the size of the pot until the flop. You can get in just as much money compared to 3-betting preflop, only now with a much better idea how strong you hand is gonna be.
Another problem with 3betting preflop is that you are also betting every flop, allowing villain to check-raise you as he sees fit. By 3betting and betting the flop, you are effectively putting in 3 bets blind. If you just call, you put in 1 bet and have all options available to you. (Including calling down in case you have a weak, showdownable hand).
As far is psychological impact. It is my experience that even the most relentless blind stealers tend to back off after a while when I employ this strategy. |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mconstab wrote: |
I generally do the same thing. I'll just call the raise OOP and check raise favourable flops or try to pick off opponents bluffs post flop. |
You are aware that we are talking SB vs BB so check/raising flop will be hard.  |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | Skrotnisse wrote: | | Wouldn´t it be better to have a 100% 3bet strategy in the BB then a 100% call? So that we make the pots bigger when we´re in position and smaller out of position. |
With villain betting every flop, you can delay the decision to increase the size of the pot until the flop. You can get in just as much money compared to 3-betting preflop, only now with a much better idea how strong you hand is gonna be.
Another problem with 3betting preflop is that you are also betting every flop, allowing villain to check-raise you as he sees fit. By 3betting and betting the flop, you are effectively putting in 3 bets blind. If you just call, you put in 1 bet and have all options available to you. (Including calling down in case you have a weak, showdownable hand).
As far is psychological impact. It is my experience that even the most relentless blind stealers tend to back off after a while when I employ this strategy. |
Fine...
I wish I could see how much you resteal back post. Anyway, maybe I´ll try that strategy again! |
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kpr16
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 596
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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My initial reaction is that I hate the idea of someone 3-betting 100 percent in the Bb vs SB, it seems very exploitable once SB knows what's going on, and can correctly tighten his range and just get big pots when he wants them.
If I was going to 3-bet 100 percent, I'd definitely want to check some flops, since now our distribution is a lot weaker than a normal 3-bet distribution in 6 max LHE.
Skrotnisse, your devil's advocate arguments contesting the idea of not 3-betting preflop ever and only choosing to raise flops is a good one. It might allow someone to open their entire range if we're not punishing them enough postflop, but I'd have to ask my opponents how they feel playing me in that seat to really get an idea for how difficult or not life is for them with my current strategy. A lot of people in the Stars 100/200 + games like to barrel non-stop, so I do delay to the turn a lot against that player as a way to exploit. What happens is they start bet-calling hands like K hi and bottom pair too much. The reason I'm raising the flop in the first place is because those hands are SUPPOSED to check, so I don't want to miss value. If they are firing any turn regardless, why bother? |
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mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 371
Location: Warwickshire, UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Skrotnisse wrote: | | mconstab wrote: |
I generally do the same thing. I'll just call the raise OOP and check raise favourable flops or try to pick off opponents bluffs post flop. |
You are aware that we are talking SB vs BB so check/raising flop will be hard. |
Lol that it would, I was referring more to being in the BB against a BTN steal. |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| kpr16 wrote: | My initial reaction is that I hate the idea of someone 3-betting 100 percent in the Bb vs SB, it seems very exploitable once SB knows what's going on, and can correctly tighten his range and just get big pots when he wants them.
If I was going to 3-bet 100 percent, I'd definitely want to check some flops, since now our distribution is a lot weaker than a normal 3-bet distribution in 6 max LHE.
Skrotnisse, your devil's advocate arguments contesting the idea of not 3-betting preflop ever and only choosing to raise flops is a good one. It might allow someone to open their entire range if we're not punishing them enough postflop, but I'd have to ask my opponents how they feel playing me in that seat to really get an idea for how difficult or not life is for them with my current strategy. A lot of people in the Stars 100/200 + games like to barrel non-stop, so I do delay to the turn a lot against that player as a way to exploit. What happens is they start bet-calling hands like K hi and bottom pair too much. The reason I'm raising the flop in the first place is because those hands are SUPPOSED to check, so I don't want to miss value. If they are firing any turn regardless, why bother? |
It´s like mentioning Zorro and he shows up! Thank you for this clarification. I do think the players at 24-5T get more intimidated by 3bets then at higher stakes? I mean there´s a lot of SB´s calling pre and check/folding flops they miss against a 3bet whenever I play. So if I were to give it up (not 3betting 100% but 3betting light that is) it has to be because of 1. balance and 2. restealing post flop instead enough to make it bothersome for them. |
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