|
|
| Author |
Message |
Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
|
 Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: involved |
 |
|
Villain is a LAG/TAG who had only defended his BB 2/9 times against a steal.
Flop play. Is this a bad peeling hand? Maybe we should be peeling hands like QJ and such (anything better we could probably call down all the way with). A backdoor flushdraw would be nice too. But here I have a backdoor straight draw, 2 overcards and it is blind vs blind..
Turn I go for the check/raise. Would probably check/raise any peeling hand that makes an OESD and heart flush draw (except A high or K high draws) so I should maybe check/raise a lone 3x here too?
3/6 Limit Holdem
6 players
Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is SB  
4 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls
Flop:    (4.0 SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls
Turn:  (3.0 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB folds |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 364
Location: Warwickshire, UK
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
I probably don't even play this pre flop to be honest but raising any 2 is likely profitable against an opponent who's folding his big blind often.
I also fold the flop as villains range is going to be stronger than usual due to the fact he's relatively tight in the blinds.
The problem I see with check raising the turn is I don't see too much he folds, I think he'll call with K high as well as A high in this spot so I don't think your raise targets too much of his range that he's actually folding. If an opponent check raised this particular board against me then I'm automatically thinking draw and will attempt to call down light blind vs blind.
That being said there's not a whole lot of my range that I'm going to be playing like this so it may be less believable in my case.
Maybe I'm a nit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Willem
2K Club
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2647
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
T5o is just one of the most crappy hands. I would just fold this preflop. Even if someone is underdefending, you still don't need to steal his blinds every single time.
Postflop is fine, even though I might not play it this way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mconstab wrote: | I probably don't even play this pre flop to be honest but raising any 2 is likely profitable against an opponent who's folding his big blind often.
I also fold the flop as villains range is going to be stronger than usual due to the fact he's relatively tight in the blinds.
The problem I see with check raising the turn is I don't see too much he folds, I think he'll call with K high as well as A high in this spot so I don't think your raise targets too much of his range that he's actually folding. If an opponent check raised this particular board against me then I'm automatically thinking draw and will attempt to call down light blind vs blind.
That being said there's not a whole lot of my range that I'm going to be playing like this so it may be less believable in my case.
Maybe I'm a nit. |
Hereīs a question instead. What hands do you peel this flop with? (even though you perceive him to have a tight range) And what hands do you then check/raise turn with? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Willem wrote: | T5o is just one of the most crappy hands. I would just fold this preflop. Even if someone is underdefending, you still don't need to steal his blinds every single time.
Postflop is fine, even though I might not play it this way. |
Yeah maybe. My preflop standard is T6o in this spot. So itīs just a small adjustment playing T5o. But it is against a tough player so maybe I should look out so I donīt get owned by opening up to much. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 364
Location: Warwickshire, UK
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Skrotnisse wrote: | | mconstab wrote: | I probably don't even play this pre flop to be honest but raising any 2 is likely profitable against an opponent who's folding his big blind often.
I also fold the flop as villains range is going to be stronger than usual due to the fact he's relatively tight in the blinds.
The problem I see with check raising the turn is I don't see too much he folds, I think he'll call with K high as well as A high in this spot so I don't think your raise targets too much of his range that he's actually folding. If an opponent check raised this particular board against me then I'm automatically thinking draw and will attempt to call down light blind vs blind.
That being said there's not a whole lot of my range that I'm going to be playing like this so it may be less believable in my case.
Maybe I'm a nit. |
Hereīs a question instead. What hands do you peel this flop with? (even though you perceive him to have a tight range) And what hands do you then check/raise turn with? |
Maybe I do peel this flop in the heat of the moment, I think it's because I never play this hand pre flop that the situation on the flop feels odd.
I play so many of my hands with a c/c, c/c line that I'm able to raise the river with some frequency if my hand picked up a decent pair on the turn. Opponents value bet me pretty light because of the way I play ace and king high hands. I honestly believe deception is wasted somewhat in todays 6max games. A regular TAG is going to call down such a wide range that I think your semi bluffs lose value. I've been playing draws and even made hands pretty passively to allow the opponent to just fire off with their hopeless hands and get the extra bets in when I hit my disguised draw. Also is it just me or is literally every TAG using the turn value check? Against a lot of TAG's I'm just donking out a picked up pair (especially a picture card) on the turn.
I will check raise some flush and OESD's as well as good pairs but I'm very picky about who I do this against and the board texture. I need to play at least 80k hands at 5/10 (i've played about 35k hands at 2.32BB/100), see what my winrate is, and then decide on the areas I need to improve. My lack of aggression in these spots may very well be an area to reconsider.
Last edited by mconstab on Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
osmosis21
SuperDuperNova
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 1877
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| are you playing in a 1/3 or 2/3 blind structure? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mconstab wrote: | Maybe I do peel this flop in the heat of the moment, I think it's because I never play this hand pre flop that the situation on the flop feels odd.
I play so many of my hands with a c/c, c/c line that I'm able to raise the river with some frequency if my hand picked up a decent pair on the turn. Opponents value bet me pretty light because of the way I play ace and king high hands. I honestly believe deception is wasted somewhat in todays 6max games. A regular TAG is going to call down such a wide range that I think your semi bluffs lose value. I've been playing draws and even made hands pretty passively to allow the opponent to just fire off with their hopeless hands and get the extra bets in when I hit my disguised draw.
I will check raise some flush and OESD's as well as good pairs but I'm very picky about who I do this against and the board texture. |
Good, so hereīs my next question. If you only peel with bluffcatchers (Ax, Kx) and made hands why should your opponents be c-betting turn with anything worse? And if you only check/raise turn with strong hands why should he be calling down light?
If you are playing this way you are pretty exploitable. I understand that you are counting on your villains not to notice, and thatīs fine. But the above villain had the same stats as me (almost) and so if it was me I would notice and you would get pawned. But I would only do it in a way so as not to tip you off. I would adjust by c-betting a little less on the turn (unless good scare cards show up or I improve to a strong draw) and fold to the turn raise with my weaker bluffcatchers and I would only call the river if I check behind on the turn with my strongest bluff catchers. Since I would only exploit you in the margins you would not notice and you would think that you are exploting me when itīs actually the other way around.
The problem with you putting a specific villain on a fixed strategy is if they adjust. Or if you are wrong or just up against a villain that might be thinking one level over you or two levels below. My posted hand above could of course be pretty bad play. Iīm just saying that we need to have some peeling hands that are intending to fold to a turn bet if they donīt improve and we need to have some semibluffs on the turn. Otherwise we are the ones who are most predictable and the LAG/TAGs would have a field day sitting to our left.
You say deception and wide semi bluffs are wasted in todays 6max games because villains call down so much. Let me ask you this. Why are high-limit players raising and reraising draws all the time when they are up against players who have an even higher went to showdown statistic then common low limit players? And they seem to be doing so quite profitable.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| osmosis21 wrote: | | are you playing in a 1/3 or 2/3 blind structure? |
1/2 and against unknown I raise T6o+. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
