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jfletcher
Will work for food
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 3162
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 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: I understand my tilt now |
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I am about halfway through reading The Poker Mindset, and now I think I understand the tilt that spoiled my Vegas trip.
First of all, my tilt was mostly in the cash games. I believe I had FPS Tilt (Fancy Play Syndrome) and a little bit of the one where you've lost so much money you don't care (I forget what they called that in the book).
Interesting that I think one of my leaks in live games is that I try so hard to watch the players and their tendencies that I over-use the information. I see a player bet the flop and fold to a raise twice, so the next thing you know I'm putting all my chips in against him on a bluff on the flop, only to find out that he really has a hand this time.
I think I need to remember that ABC poker is probably good enough to beat the average fish-filled NL 2-5 or NL 1-2 game at a Vegas casino. I believe you can pretty much make value plays only and come out ahead. There is no need to get tricky.
Anyway, I digress.
The point is my game had deriorated because I was losing. I had thought tilt only applied to playing wild and steaming. I never do that. In fact, after a guy sucked out on me to beat my AA with A3 on a runner runner straight, I remember sitting calmly and not saying a word, thinking: "I bet the whole table is impressed with my composure here."
I think from now on I'm going to write myself some little notes (Don't get cute, play tight, etc.) and stick them in my pocket when I play live. If I get on a bad run, I'm going to get up from the table, go where no one else can see me, and look at my notes. That should get me grounded. |
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krazytxan
Texas Matriarch
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4578
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Great post..
I use to always have a blank sheet of paper in front of me (while playing online) and I would write notes to myself. I don't know why I stopped doing this. I saved alot of them and I should probably dig them up and read them again.
Some of the ones I remember:
Patience
Play smart
etc.
I do believe you can "over-use" information or make conclusions that later are not valid.
KT
Last edited by krazytxan on Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22457
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| krazytxan wrote: | | I do believe you can "over-use" information or make conclusions that later have are not valid. |
I'm the king of that particular mistake! I've spend a lot of time learning to detect fear on people's faces. It turns out that sometimes they are scared when they shouldn't be. A lot of times the information you collect so carefully about the other players can be badly misused. I'm working on that. |
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toronexti
53o
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 4171
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | krazytxan wrote: | | I do believe you can "over-use" information or make conclusions that later have are not valid. |
I'm the king of that particular mistake! I've spend a lot of time learning to detect fear on people's faces. It turns out that sometimes they are scared when they shouldn't be. A lot of times the information you collect so carefully about the other players can be badly misused. I'm working on that. |
Like when they're afraid you're gonna fold. |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22457
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| toronexti wrote: | | nsidestrate wrote: | | krazytxan wrote: | | I do believe you can "over-use" information or make conclusions that later have are not valid. |
I'm the king of that particular mistake! I've spend a lot of time learning to detect fear on people's faces. It turns out that sometimes they are scared when they shouldn't be. A lot of times the information you collect so carefully about the other players can be badly misused. I'm working on that. |
Like when they're afraid you're gonna fold. |
What usually happens is that the guy has a pretty strong hand like a set on a flush board and he's scared I got the flush at the end. I correctly read his lack of confidence and fear, but misread what that means about the strength of his hand.
I offer two examples where I misplayed based on a bad read, one that ended great and one that ended poorly:
1) In the first event, there was Jack high board with two diamonds. I was chasing a draw other than the diamond draw and I played it in such a way that the fact that I was chasing was obvious. When the diamond draw came in on the river, the other player was obviously disgusted and knew that I most likely got there. I put him all-in because I was certain from my read of him that he was scared to death of the flush and that he had to suspect I had it. He called me with QQ on an extremely scary board with a ton of evidence that I was chasing the very draw which came in. I don't even think he played it bad, he just didn't have enough chips to get away. In the Main Event, I think he'd fold.
2) Flop comes down JJ4 and I check-raise a player all-in. She raised too big pre-flop and looked unhappy with the flop. I was sure she had AK. She goes way in the tank and folds KK. If I had guessed she held KK, I would never had made the play. She folded a much stronger hand on a much safer board than the guy in #1. I was probably dumb in both cases.
So you can figure out that they are scared or figure out what they hold, but you can't always figure out what they will do with that hand. |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22457
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| toronexti wrote: | | Like when they're afraid you're gonna fold. |
By the way, that face doesn't look anything like the real scared face. I'm pretty good at reading the "please call" face. |
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AlamedaMike
2K Club
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 2042
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | toronexti wrote: | | Like when they're afraid you're gonna fold. |
By the way, that face doesn't look anything like the real scared face. I'm pretty good at reading the "please call" face. |
Makes me wonder if I can be read as easy as you read others. Maybe I give off confidence on my good hand and lack of on my bad hands - that is why I get called more when I have a bad hand. I can never tell if I am telegraphing my hand. My wife has watched me play and she says that she can not read me and she knows me and my play well.
But, live limit games there is not much fear but in the NL games that you play there must be a lot of it.
Something to ponder. |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22457
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| AlamedaMike wrote: | | nsidestrate wrote: | | toronexti wrote: | | Like when they're afraid you're gonna fold. |
By the way, that face doesn't look anything like the real scared face. I'm pretty good at reading the "please call" face. |
Makes me wonder if I can be read as easy as you read others. |
The more I learn about reading emotional expression, the less value I think it really has. It is most useful in situations where there are really big bets with a lot on the line. In limit poker, people simply don't have emotional reactions that are strong enough to change their expression.
However, some limit players are so careless about their reactions that you don't need any sophisticated analysis. Look at the people to your left when you are about to act. Half of the time, they either have their hand on their cards, ready to muck or on their chips, ready to bet. This isn't exactly phD material.
Unfortunately, as I have said, when I do pick up on a true emotional reaction, it still sends me in the wrong direction as often as not. In most situations even in NL, a bluff doesn't make him feel scared and hitting his top pair doesn't make him euphoric. The reaction that seems to be the most reliable from amateurs seems to be when they hit a monster. They often are unable to mask their excitement. Sometimes they try and fail, sometimes they don't even try. I saw a guy who was so excited he leaned fully over the table when he hit a hand and the rest of the time he sat back and slouched a full foot farther away. It is funny how some people don't make any effort to hide their emotions and other people go into the full Unibomber mode in 1/2 limit. |
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toronexti
53o
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 4171
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I know you read books for this nside but is there a good summary with some diagrams involved? I read about half of the 'emotions revealed' book and got bored/it was due at the library - so I stopped. |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22457
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| toronexti wrote: | | I know you read books for this nside but is there a good summary with some diagrams involved? I read about half of the 'emotions revealed' book and got bored/it was due at the library - so I stopped. |
Sadly, it is written for psychologists and academics, so it isn't that easy to digest.
I'm told that the computer learning CDs are the easiest to master. I haven't tried them myself. linky |
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krazytxan
Texas Matriarch
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4578
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: |
Sadly, it is written for psychologists and academics, so it isn't that easy to digest.
Ilinky |
I may like it!!  Love all they psycho stuff.
Kt |
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chrisjp
Mr. Lovable
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 5009
Location: Round Rock, TX and Las Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | So you can figure out that they are scared or figure out what they hold, but you can't always figure out what they will do with that hand. |
One of the reasons playing live is so fun. I recounted this hand but will do it again. The target had like 1600 and we were playing 100/200 in the seniors with a 25 ante. He had been moved to the table about an orbit ago and hadn't played a hand. Seemed like the classic weak/tight but of course I've only seen ten hands. Still I think it should be meaningful especially live where you can check out his appearance and demeanor.
So I raised UTG to 600, I have him way outchipped, and he calls in middle position. There's almost 1800 in the pot and he has about 1K behind. The flop is Kxx rainbow.
Now normally I c/b here, but this just felt wrong. I "felt" that he was strong, who knows. So I checked. And he checked behind.
Well that was interesting. Why did he check? Was I wrong about him and he has AQ or 88 or something like that? Seemed odd to me.
Now the turn is a Q. Well I felt I had a shot at this so let's put him all in. Plus I had JTs so I have 8 outs if I'm wrong. Without those outs I probably would have checked again.
Oops! He calls quickly with QQ. And I miss of course. Well I was half right, he was scared of the flop with that overcard. Too scared. I wouldn't have been scared but that's where you have to get into villain's mind. But I didn't really think he could be that strong. And I didn't notice any change in his behavior when the Q fell. There probably was some and I'm not good enough to detect it.
Chris |
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chrisjp
Mr. Lovable
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 5009
Location: Round Rock, TX and Las Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: I understand my tilt now |
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| jfletcher wrote: | | ...and a little bit of the one where you've lost so much money you don't care (I forget what they called that in the book).... |
I know what Caro calls it and he has a great blurb about it in SS2. He calls it crossing the Threshold of Misery. You cross that and you are numb to additional misery....and are quite susceptible to more.
Chris |
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