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I may have folded the best hand

 
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mconstab



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 385
Location: Warwickshire, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:43 am    Post subject: I may have folded the best hand Reply with quote

I really hate these spots. I'm making an effort to play a bit more passively in marginal situations but I think I'm confusing some of the concepts. Should I just raise this flop or call flop and fold the turn 3 way? As played I don't have odds to draw to improve but I may well have the best hand, I ended up just playing it like a weak ass.

Villain is 42/17/1.7, no reads as yet.

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with K Diamond: 8 Diamond:
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls

Flop: (6.5 SB) 7 Club: 8 Spade: A Diamond: (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, UTG calls

Turn: (4.75 BB) 3 Club: (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero folds, UTG calls

River: (6.75 BB) K Spade: (2 players)
UTG checks, CO bets, UTG folds


Last edited by mconstab on Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey


Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22457

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a bad spot. I don't really like the flop call because you are hanging out to dry there. Once the EP player tags along, I think you have no choice but to fold the turn.

If you are going to continue with the hand, raising the flop is probably best. It should drop EP almost every time and will define your hand against the CO. If the flop was Q87 or J87 or T87, I'd check raise for sure. Unfortunately, against a loose raiser, an Ace high flop is fairly likely to have hit him, so it isn't the very best spot. If UTG calls your check-raise, you'd usually be done with the hand. If you are heads-up with the CO, you would lead the turn. If you are three bet, you'd generally check-fold the turn.
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mconstab



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 385
Location: Warwickshire, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thinking by calling the flop instead of raising was that my equity may be marginal in this spot and I get to see what UTG does i.e if he's raises then I can call if it's one bet to me and fold the turn unimproved or fold the flop if the CO 3 bets. Alternatively, if UTG folds I'm now HU with the CO and would likely see a showdown. Of course, I didn't take into account what I'd do if UTG calls which is likely given that he limped in pre flop.

As you say if the flop was very draw heavy and contained no ace then I'm popping this flop for sure, especially with the backdoor flush.

But this to me looks like I have a vulnerable hand and I need to raise the flop to define it and then bet the turn, folding to a turn raise. I guess a problem with raising and being 3 bet on the flop is that your going to be getting near the correct price to then call the turn with implied odds.
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey


Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22457

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mconstab wrote:
Alternatively, if UTG folds I'm now HU with the CO and would likely see a showdown. Of course, I didn't take into account what I'd do if UTG calls which is likely given that he limped in pre flop.


That's why it is a gross spot. You are giving UTG like 9:1, so he is almost never going to fold. Once he calls, you have a very hard time continuing on the turn, only getting 6:1. However, CO has had no reason to slow down, so he could still be betting a worse hand than yours and UTG might have nothing. When you call (which is a perfectly normal line), you are really putting yourself in a spot where you pretty much have to fold the turn most of the time.
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Willem
2K Club


Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2652
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This flop action demonstrates why having relative position is so valuable. In this position preflop, I'm more inclined to either 3-bet or fold compared to calling. But 3-betting K8s here preflop is spew, and folding is too weak, leaving calling as the least worst option.

The flop is a shitty spot but I don't like to fold 2nd pair with a backdoor nutflush draw. On the one hand, you'd like to see the turn as cheaply as possible. On the other hand, just calling will put you in a bad spot (like nside says). All things considered, I think raising the flop is slightly better.
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