I consider this a standard play - or is it a leak?

[Scully]

No reads on villain as few hands against him, but seems a little LAGy

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($5.30)
Button ($4)
SB ($8.65)
BB ($10.75)
UTG ($0.75)
MP ($3.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, A. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, Button raises to $0.35, 1 fold, Hero (poster) calls $0.25.

Flop: ($0.75) 6, A, K (3 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.6, Hero raises to $2, Button raises to $5.55 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $4.75

[BigViking]

Your flop raise is really, really bad if you are not snap calling the all in.

[Neilis]

Conversion might be messed up? Button only starts with $4 which makes raising to $5.55 a bit tough.

Anyway, fold preflop or raise preflop. A5 is a bad hand to be calling raises with out of position. You can't raise then fold the flop either.

[BigViking]

Yeah, forgot to mention that. Just muck pre.

[royze1]

Without a read muck PF for sure.

I'd also suggest looking for a different table to play on from the start. There's no money in this game. You're the only player at the table with a full stack, so you have no chance of doubling through anyone. You're also limiting your starting hand range as they're going to be much more inclined to shove PF over your raises, so many hands you would open with have lost value. If you just want to sit in and nut peddle them for stacks then go for it, but if you're looking to play poker find a table with money on it.

[emmapeel]

Well, Villain has only 40BB here which I think is important.

I'm probably folding pre-flop unless I was sure villain was very loose. A- rag can get into a lot of trouble.

I would probably check-call the flop and see what happens on the turn. With the check-raise you need to work out why you are doing that.

If you are only trying to get villain to fold then the cards don't matter too much. Villain will have less chance of also having an ace though. If you are trying to win with the best hand then it is hard to see many weaker hands that will call this check-raise. Because villain is so short a lot of hands will push instead. To me, the main value in the check-raise is in trying to get villain to fold. If villain plays on then it will be tough to play and Hero may lose more money.

For me, this looks like a possible leak. I think Hero may lose more money than winning money in the long run. Very interesting hand though.

EP

[Wicker_Man33]

I think this is a leak. You gotta have the discipline to just fold your Ax hands......especially when you are OOP. In this case, since the villain is LAGGY, he is only 2 seats to your right. You will have many more opportunities to play pots against this guy when you are in position. Then you can make more informed decisions and you will usually have better starting hands to begin with if you exercise some discipline.

-Wick

[ciaran]

Temporarily moved here from NL and bumped for our expert's opinions.

[NickChristenson]

The first thing I'll note is that assuming you call pre-flop, there's now about $0.50 in the pot and the short stack remaining has $3.75 left. So stacks are about 7.5x the size of the pot. There is room for three bets or raises left. Except on a pure bluff, I won't be putting the second of these in without going all the way.

With a $0.10 big blind, the biggest stack being $11, and the median stack being in the $4/$5 range, this game is generally being played short-stacked, so the appropriate short-stack adjustments/strategies/thought patterns apply, and they certainly apply in this hand.

I have no idea how people generally play in this game, and I have no information other than what the poster provided on how this particular player plays. I'm guessing it plays looser and with proportionally larger bet sizes than would a larger stakes game.

Given the game is short handed, the stack sizes, and the position of the raiser, I believe a case can be made for either calling or folding pre-flop. I'm not going to fault either. If the raise came from early position, I think a fold is clear. In late position, I think a call can be justified. So, I really don't have a comment one way or another on the pre-flop call.

I like the check on the flop, as when I'm defending my blinds, against most players I'll either check-raise or check-fold the flop. Then the BB bets the size of the pot, which is quite reasonable given the stack sizes and pot composition.

I think there are three possible ways to play this hand from this point, so we'll look at the strengths and weaknesses of each:

1) Fold. There's nothing wrong with this play. However, if you always fold in this situation, then my question would be, "What flop were you hoping to hit with this hand where you would continue?" If you won't continue at least some of the time with this flop, then I think folding pre-flop should dominate your pre-flop strategy in this spot.

Also, as stacks get deeper, folding on the flop becomes the dominant strategy. Therefore, as stacks get deeper, folding pre-flop should dominate.

2) Raise. IMHO, if I raise here it's because I think I have the best hand. Moreover, I think I would be pot-stuck, so if I raise once I plan on playing for all of my chips. If I raise but don't go all-in, then I have chips that are in jeopardy but are providing me no leverage. This is a concept Russ and I discuss in our book. This is a bad situation to be in, since our opponent gets to decide whether these chips go into the pot or not. If I'm in a position where I'm going to be pot-stuck when I make a bet, I figure I may as well move those chips in myself. So, if I do check-raise, it will be an all-in check-raise. Then even if he has a better ace, he may have something to think about. Plus, I'd be giving the flush improper odds to continue.

3) Call. I don't generally like this play, but I might make it against certain opponent types. If I think there's a chance that my opponent might fire one barrel as a bluff but then back down, then this might be a good play. Unless I have this specific read on him, though, I wouldn't be inclined to pursue this route. One thing you can do with a call on the flop is intend to represent
the flush if a diamond comes on the turn with additional show-down equity. So doing this sort of thing once in a while can be a valuable way to mix up your play. I don't think the hand should often be played this way.

So, most of the time, if I think my Ax hand is worth a call out of the blinds pre-flop, then I have to like an ace-high flop. So, given the stack sizes I'm planning on check-raising all-in on the flop if it comes with an ace. If he checks back on the flop, I'll generally bet the pot on the turn unless a really scary card comes (such as another high diamond). If I didn't want to check-raise all-in on the flop with a pair of aces, the time to get away from the hand is pre-flop.

In big-bet poker, much more so than in limit poker, you need to be thinking ahead. It's death to call pre-flop or on the flop without knowing under what circumstances you'll continue with the hand. If you'll only keep going with hands where you flop two pair or better, then the values of all unpaired starting hands are nearly equivalent, and you don't have the odds to play any of them. In any case, you need to have a plan for what you'll be doing on each street depending on what cards comes and what your opponents do. This plan should be clear in your mind before your first voluntary chips go into the pot.

I think a lot of the time people are concerned about how to play borderline hands. However, by definition, if a hand really is borderline then there is very little equity to be gained by changing your decision. I think the decision about whether to call or not pre-flop in this hand is a borderline decision. I think the only real "mistake" is not raising all-in when the decision was made to raise.

Those are my thoughts, others are welcome.

[Bluedaq]

[NickChristenson]

[Bluedaq]

How would you play big pairs from early position deep stacked and what do you think about "protecting your hand" with these type of hands on the flop.

[NickChristenson]

[emmapeel]

I've being trying to work out the point of check-raising all-in on the flop. I think it's a semi-bluff.

The concern for me was that the Ax hand had no chance to win if called which would turn the hand into a sort of bluff. The hand indeed has only an 8% chance against another Ax or a set calling. (Ignoring looser calls for a moment.) However, according to Pokerstove Hero has 20% chance of a tie to go along with this. Hero is now not doing so bad against this range.

If villain calls with about 25% of his hands and has 75% chance to win when he does call then it looks +EV to me for Hero.

For me, the check-raise all-in on the flop only works because of the 20% chance of splitting the pot when called. In other words; Hero still has decent chances when called so it is a sort of semi-bluff.

Question for the Expert.

You mentioned that you thought that Hero had the best hand on the flop and I agree with this, but is it worth anything to know this? I don't see how knowing this can determine what play you choose to make. Comments on my above analysis are greatly appreciated too.

thx

EP

[emmapeel]

I'm going to do a rough model on the check-raise play to try to get an idea what is happening here. I'm going to assume the following:

1/ Villain raises pre-flop with: pairs, Ax and broadway hands. (27.6%)

2/ Villain always bets the flop here.

3/ Villain calls the push with only top pair or better. (27% for Hero here.)

Because of cards on the flop and in Hero's hand villain can't have a range of 27.6% anymore. I think Villain can have only about 14% of the hands now and from this 14% about 7% have made top pair or better.

This means that villain will fold to the push about 50% of the time. (Much less than I thought.) I'll now do an EV sum; skip to the bottom if you just want the answer.

So 50% of the time villain folds and we win the pot. 50%* +$1.35 = +$0.65

The other 50% of the time this happens: (I've rounded the numbers up a bit to make it easier.)

70% of the time; Called and lose. 70%* -$5.55 = -$3.90

20% of the time; called and split. 20%* +$0.65 = +$ 0.15

10% of the time; called but win. 10%* +$6.90 = +$0.70

total -$3.05 * 50% = -$1.50

Total EV on the play is: +$0.65 -$1.50 = -$0.85.

On these figures the check-raise all-in looks like a bad play. For me, villain will have a better hand far too often to risk so much money.

I think I still want to check-call the flop.

EP