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Scully
Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 678
Location: Manchester, UK
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: Horror Session - Hand 2 |
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I'm pretty sure this hand was played OK - any comments though?
SB 23/7
Titan Poker 0.10/0.20, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker
saw flop | saw showdown
Button Scully77 ($19.20)
SB selrahc ($21.37)
BB powiddle1 ($20.00)
UTG yodaenly ($20.4
UTG+1 jianny ($57.96)
Preflop: , 1 fold, jianny raises to 0.80, Scully77 raises to 3.00, 2 folds, jianny calls 2.20.
Flop (6.30) 6 4 T
jianny checks, Scully77 bets 4.00, jianny calls 4.00.
Turn (14.30) 3
jianny checks, Scully77 checks.
River (14.30) 3
jianny moves all-in for 50.96, 1 fold
Scully77 folded K A |
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mash_tun
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 932
Location: CT, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Looks OK. I think you meant to say that the UTG player (not SB) was 23/7. This guy is the same one that limped QTo in your 1st hand. He probably has a fairly narrow PFR range from UTG...maybe AQ/AQ, JJ+?
I like your 3-bet PF...you'd like to start building a pot vs. this clown and also get some more info PF...if he pushes or 4-bets this, I'm most likely folding it, as I'm not going to be all that comfortable if an A or K hits the flop. When he flat-calls, I'm thinking JJ, QQ, AQ/AK hands.
CB on the flop is fine, but for these players, I also like to see what their fold to CB% is...if it's high, it's an easy CB...if it's low, you might just peel one off for free, since you've got some vague backdoor draws and also could catch up/get ahead if an A or K hits the turn.
I think the turn and river action are both fine. Find a better spot vs. this guy. |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22457
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| With a fairly dry board texture, I'd usually fire a second barrel on the turn to either take it down or get to showdown free. |
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Taardvark
1K Club
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 1085
Location: Fremont, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | With a fairly dry board texture, I'd usually fire a second barrel on the turn to either take it down or get to showdown free. |
I agree. A lot of hands will float this flop. Pretty much any medium pair, a couple of overs, etc. I think you have to keep pressing on the turn. I think you're river fold is standard and had you fired a second barrel on the turn you'd have an even better idea of where you are at. |
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Scully
Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 678
Location: Manchester, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
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This villain was the same villain as in hand 1. He pwned me  |
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mash_tun
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 932
Location: CT, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Scully wrote: | | This villain was the same villain as in hand 1. He pwned me |
Did he show a complete bluff, Scully? If so, this is very important information to make a note of...some players will be semi-loose passive preflop, but become very bluffy or aggressive post-flop, whereas others are just plain passive pre- and post- flop. To me, it's so +EV to go beyond the numbers...it's most likely one of the reasons why I have a better long-term winrate on Bodog NL cash (besides the poorer players)...I can only play 3 tables at a time there and it's without a HUD, so I'm forced to pay attention to more than just "villain was 30/10/1.5 over 50 hands"...many times a session, I'll play a hand differently based on these qualitative reads than if had just HUD numbers on the villain |
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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | With a fairly dry board texture, I'd usually fire a second barrel on the turn to either take it down or get to showdown free. |
I really disagree with this line here on that board. Making a second barrel when the board does not change is definitely not the best spot to make a 2 barrel. A second barrel here only represents an overpair, and if you manage to get a showdown because of it A high will rarely be good so you will need to improve.
I would definitely not 2barrel here with a hand that has showdown value in itself and just check behind here. If I would 2barrel on a board like that in position, it would be with a hand like 22 because it has next to no showdown value if called here and only 2 outs to improve. But not in a 3 bet pot like here, definitely not vs an UTG opener who called a 3bet OOP and check-called the flop.
The same goes a bit for cbetting here. It's a 3bet pot vs someone who has a 7% PFR who raised/called. Even if he's bad, the only worse hands he'll hold here are hands AK dominates on this flop. I see very few worse hands that will call a bet on this flop except for a flushdraw and like no better hands that will fold to a cbet on this flop.
So because of that, my options on this flop would be to consider to check and fold to further action or check to induce a bluff on turn from worse hands. VS an UTG opener with a 7% PFR, I'm more inclined to just check behind and fold to a turn or river bet unless I improve. |
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jaydreb
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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I think you have to at least c-bet this flop. 3-betting with AK and then not c-betting a dry board is a recipe for losing $$ in my opinion. You're only going to hit your hand 1/3 of the time. A lot of your winnings with AK are going to come when your c-bet takes down the pot.
I might consider not c-betting if the board was something like J-T-9 with flush draws, etc. |
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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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In a normal raised pot, not cbetting AK can be bad/good based on villain, but in a 3bet pot, cbetting here is pretty bad unless villain plays extremely straightforward. The reason is because the bet accomplishes very little.
If this was a normal raised pot, villain's range would be much less strong, and a cbet here with 6 outs in general is quite standard but even then not always optimal.
In a 3bet pot though, his range is stronger, and your range is generally balanced between high aces and high pairs after 3betting a EP opener. I think cbetting in 3bet pots too often with ace high on boards like these is a leak, unless villain just folds to almost any cbet in those spots.
| Quote: | | 3-betting with AK and then not c-betting a dry board is a recipe for losing $$ in my opinion. |
I strongly disagree with this. Checking behind here would be my default option, but that does not mean I would fold to a turn bet all the time unimproved. But on this board, I would also check behind AA with ace of spades simply because it's very hard for villain to hold much here, and checking behind makes it much easier to get two streets of value from medium pairs.
Betting here allows villain to fold his worse aces, hands that may take a stab at the turn, and it costs about the same. Some people will bet any turn if you check here which allows you to also get more value from worse hands. Cbetting on the other hand will hardly ever make a better hand fold and gives hands like gutshots and low pairs a chance to bluffraise here. |
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emmapeel
2K Club
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2533
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think re-raising a little less pre-flop is fine too. It depends if it matters though. I don't want to discourage AQ but if that hand calls a big bet then that is fine.
I certainly would think about calling on the end as I'm sure I'm beating some things here. Great for developing a crazy "no one bluffs me" image. I think folding might be the better play though.
EP |
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emmapeel
2K Club
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2533
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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ST's arguments are very interesting. For me, everything is too complicated to be so precise about a certain play.
Continuation betting here still looks good to me as the pot is reasonably big now. Since we have missed the flop the actual hand becomes less important to the possibility of winning with a bluff bet. I'm representing a big pair so villain has to worry and may fold a lot of better hands. It is also the usual play with an overpair so I can't give away my hand here by doing a different play for either overpairs or overcards.
Very interesting and very complicated so I don't think checking or betting with AK can be described clearly as bad.
I think firing a second barrel has a problem in that Hero's stack is now less than the size of the pot. We may give ourselves a tough decision if re-raised as we will have big odds to try to hit our pair, we may even be ahead to a big drawing hand like  , . I like the idea but not in this situation.
EP |
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