Hand Reading Gravity

[Piemaster]

I have noticed a bit of a leak in my game and I think it is psychological rather than technical. When I put my opponent on a hand, I will tend to put then on a hand either slightly better or slightly worse than what I have. I don't always subconsciously consider that I am 'way ahead' or 'way behind' (I put these in quotation marks because they don't mean what they usually mean in thi context).

For example, If I have Aces and I am raised on a turn of ( ) then I will consider the possibility that they have top pair or a draw and I am ahead or that they have spiked two pair with KJ or J9 and I am behind. However, if I had 99 on the same turn I would consider more seriously the possibility of a straight or a higher set.

Or the opposite, I will call down an aggressive player with Ace high and then feel really stupid when I see I was drawing dead to a flopped set all along. I assumed they either had one pair or they were bluffing.

Has anybody else experienced this problem?

[AlamedaMike]

I'm not sure that it is a problem. When you make a read you need to go with it.

I think it is natural to use your hand as a base point. You have a straight, what can beat you? Then see if the facts kind of jell with the action.

I am not all that good at reading a bunch of hands - sometimes I am dead on and sometimes I am way off.

It would be interesting to see what more experieced players have to say.

------- this hand --------

A weak and loose player was in front of me - I think he was BB or EP - in any event I was MP with AKs and naturally I raised. The flop was King high (K96) and he checked and I bet - I know that the called, maybe one other may have. Anyway, the turn was uneventfully (2 or 3) and he bet into me. I now raised him. He called. The river was an 8 and I figured it was a blank so when he checked I naturally bet. He now ck/r me. I called and he showed K8o for two pair.

-- I was lost, I had no idea why he raised me on the turn. --- I almost checked behind on the river in case he had turned 2 pair.

[niin]

I think what he's saying is that, given two identically played hands on identical boards, the hand range he puts his opponent on changes with what his hand is.

If you think about it, the hand range should be the same in both cases.

[janeg]

[Piemaster]

[janeg]

Yes, when I review I think about betting pattern, player type and their possible hand range but at the table I never seem to put all three together and hand range is usually the one I miss, I notice action-> loose/tight -> board and then take my action

Just thought of something, d'uh, I'm doing it backward! Thinking order should be player type->hand range->board->action ... now gotta see if I can break old habits! New sticky note on desktop today

[AlamedaMike]

[niin]

[AlamedaMike]

Speaking of reads -

Here is a read and maybe it is too easy in that there are two few choices.

I had AK EP and raised. The flop was 4TK rainbow, I bet, 1 called and I was now raised (now HU). What could she have to raise me after I raised PF?

Initial read - Maybe a K and was checking to see if I had a smaller pair.

I raised, and she re-raised.

New read - I think she most likely has TT, KTs or 44. Since she did not 3-bet the flop I have eliminated hands like AA, and KK

A King hits the Turn and I now bet and she raises. (this bet was because if she had AA and was slowplaying, unlikely, I was now ahead).

New read - she has TT

River is a blank, I check and she bets? Call or fold?

[Piemaster]

You can't possibly fold this ever ever ever. You may be beat, you may be ahead of a something like KQ or be tying with another AK.

[AlamedaMike]

[Wynton]

I'm skeptical this is occurring, or that it qualifies as an kind of leak.

First of all, hero's hand does affect the range of the villain's hand to at least some extent, simply by eliminating a couple of possible cards.

Second, the hand that is "slightly better" or "slightly worse" may often be the hand that the opponent most likely has.

And some hands simply get disguised better, like when someone makes a straight on the turn and they have 107, or when they get trips with a small pair.

My hunch is that, on a subconscious level, Pie, you are taking into account other factors that affect the villain's hand range.

[Fast Eddy]

I play a weekly game with 7 guys and last week I got knocked out and was watching the guys finish the sit-n-go. I noticed one of the loose/aggressive players always puts people on hands that are weaker than they actually have while I tend to put people on stronger hands than they actually have. I think it's caused by assuming others think and strategize like us.

[mrxc]

[TShadyBaby]

Wynton makes a valid point about the your cards narrows down the hands of your opponent.
I agree with Fast Eddy quite a few players make this mistake including myself. By thinking if they are a good player they must play hands a certain way. It may seem like a small hole in your game but if you combine it with another small mistake it becomes a black hole. For example being to rigid on your reads of an opponent in a hand. This was a major hole in my game.



The second problem that combines with the first to make a huge hole in your game.
Which became the most important thing I learned after preflop hand selection. One players style of play or a particular style of play isn't always the correct way to play every situation. Not all of your opponents think logically or they may be reading the situation completely different for you because you have decided to put them on a precise hand. I had to except that you cannot always place an opponent on a particular hand or a small range of hands. I increased the range of hands I put my opponents on. I fold more often and take what most of us would call bad beats. On occasion I throw away best hand it happens.

I would say this is both a psychological and technical problem or I maybe combining those two holes in my game. I think they are related and feed off of each other.

You must be able to take in all the info avalible for every round and process it to bet, call, raise, or fold. At least that is what I am trying to do.

Any suggestions?