FR LO8 -- Solid VP$IP?

[Raisindye]

I'm relatively new to LO8 and I have recently crossed over 25k hands played. I enjoy the hell out of the game and after a rough start, I decided to read the LO8 chapter in SS2. Between my experience and the chapter I read, I turned the ship around quite a bit and I'm starting to see a decent profit margin.

My question is this though; what would be a good VP$IP. I know that question can be a bit ambiguous because different types of players would call different percentages out depending on play style. Maybe I should ask, what different categories are the VP$IP percentages set up in for LO8? Mine across the board in FR LO8 at all different limits is 16.05% -- does this mean I'm tight?

I've searched and searched the interne to find a good answer to this, but to no avail. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

P

[toom]

At full ring limit, 16.05% is too low for the current state of the games. Your ideal VPIP has an inverse relationship to table VPIP: At a loose table (50% to the flop), you can play many fewer hands preflop - the solid, solid two way hands we all wait for. At those tables, your scoops, 3/4s, freerolls, and high-half (when several others split a low), and high-only scoops are much more profitable, so playing tight is very profitable here for two reasons:

1) There is more money in the pot for your premium hands;

2) You don't get involved with second-second type hands, which can get you creamed at loose FR tables.

Unfortunately, the fish aren't swimming at the FR LO8 tables online. You can either: practice better table selection (sometimes that means changing games), or loosen up.

There are two problems with playing tight at tight tables:

1) You are too easy to read. Tighter players are usually better players. You will not get action from them when your rare +EV situations arise.

2) You miss out on the orphan pots when top and bottom pair is enough. You miss out on the checked-to-showdown pots when "nobody has nuthin'." In the tight small pots, it's not necessarily what you have, but what they fear you have. With six opponents, it's all about what you have.

In O8, there are ~5300 starting hands (there's actually 270K +, but a lot of those are duplicates by suits [different suits, same rank]. Since in Omaha, a single card in a suit is meaningless, we can eliminate most of the starting hands). ~5300 is many, many more than texas holdem(1326), though, so it takes a lot longer for your VPIP at Omaha to become statistically significant. Over 25K hands, you should have received each hand about 5 times, but your variance will be huge, and we haven't even factored in position yet.

Playing FR, with the current state of the online game, I would suggest numbers around:

VPIP 26%
PFR 5%
WWSF 21%
W$SD 58%.

What are your W$SD numbers?

[toom]

By changing games, I mean:

-Looking at the level one higher or one lower than you normally play

-Playing shorthanded (sometimes the most profitable SH tables are the tightest)

-Playign PL. I LOOOOVE tight-passive or loose-passive PLO8 games. I have several 1000+ hand sessions in PT that were >50% VPIP (by me) but were quite profitable.

-Look at a different site.

I know that "changing games" doesn't necessarily answer your question about LO8, but I present it as an alternative.

Unfortunately, the days of hundreds of 50-60% tables full of bad-low chasing fish are generally gone online. You can't just peddle the nuts anymore, so 16% VPIP, if it is statistically significant, is too low if you want to continue to grind at that game.

That said, it is possible to have a 10,000 hand downswing with a 12% VPIP (I know I have one in PTO). That would skew your 25K hands numbers if you had a similar downswing. The funny thing about O8 is that in a downswing, your VPIP generally drops if you are a decent, thinking player who is not tilting and spewing chips.

[Raisindye]

Wow Toom!!

Thanks so much for all that awesome info! I will continue to use it as a guideline as I progress...

P