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CaffineAddict
Joined: 12 Feb 2005 Posts: 85 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: Fantasy sports law suit thrown out. |
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Found this on another poker forum, may be old news:
Fantasy league suit thrown out of court
BY TED SHERMAN
STAR-LEDGER STAFF (New Jersey)
The Internet can continue to be a field of dreams, a federal judge ruled yesterday.
Throwing out a lawsuit against ESPN and other sports Web sites, U.S. District Judge Dennis Cavanaugh in Newark rejected arguments that fantasy sports games, played by more than 16 million people across the country, are an illegal form of online gambling.
"The payment of an entry fee to participate in a fantasy sports league is not wagering, betting or, staking money," Cavanaugh said in dismissing the complaint.
ESPN attorneys hailed the ruling, calling it the first in the nation to make it clear that fantasy sports players are simply hobbyists.
The lawsuit was filed last year by Charles Humphrey Jr., a Colorado attorney who argued that is fantasy sports were games of chance. Humphrey, one-time staff attorney for the Securities and change Commission and a specialist in gambling, law, stood to recover millions from the fantasy sports Web sites if his claim had prevailed.
Fantasy sports, played by millions of participants nationwide, allows fans to create teams that compete against each other based on the game statistics of actual professional athletes.
First begun more than 20 years ago as an exercise by armchair baseball managers who "drafted' players for their own personal teams, the game has since expanded to many other sports and onto the Internet. On ESPN's Web site, players from across the country can compete against each other in fantasy baseball, football, soccer, golf, basketball - even bass fishing.
In his lawsuit, filed against ESPN, Sports Line.com, the Sporting News and their parent companies, Humphrey argued that any attempts to predict the future performances of athletes involved chance guesses, turning entry fees into unlawful gambling transactions.
If the claim had been held up, Humphrey would have been allowed to recover a portion of those entry fees in what some have estimated to be a $1.5 billion industry.
But attorneys for ESPN and the other sports sites said no state has ever sought to prosecute fantasy sports providers or participants under existing gambling statutes. They argued that Humphrey sought to make a new law in an effort to award himself "millions of dollars in damages that he did not suffer."
"You had a lawyer trying to play judicial Lotto," remarked former New Jersey Attorney General Peter Harvey, who represented ESPN.
In court briefs, ESPN charged that the Colorado attorney was using an old law allowing the recovery of illegal gambling losses of someone else, "solely to reap a windfall for himself."
That law, derived from old English statutes, has not been used to recover gambling proceeds in more than a century, Harvey noted.
"There simply no case law, no decision, that has ever held that fantasy sports leagues constitute gambling," he said. |
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CaffineAddict
Joined: 12 Feb 2005 Posts: 85 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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By this reasoning, wouldn't a poker tournament be in the same situation?
For both fantasy sports and poker tournaments a one time fee is deposited on entry.
I have never played fantasy sports, but as I understand, the one who collects the most points receives the prize pool. This is the same for poker tournaments, whoever collects all of the chips/points is the winner. |
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flafishy
Joined: 30 Nov 2004 Posts: 211 Location: Broward County, FL
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CaffineAddict wrote: | By this reasoning, wouldn't a poker tournament be in the same situation?
For both fantasy sports and poker tournaments a one time fee is deposited on entry.
I have never played fantasy sports, but as I understand, the one who collects the most points receives the prize pool. This is the same for poker tournaments, whoever collects all of the chips/points is the winner. |
You're absolutely right. There is no difference in the structures of the games except that poker requires a bit of skill.
Oh, the other difference is that the major sports leagues, which contribute a lot of political money, support fantasy games but oppose poker. |
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nukeduke ITH BBQ Host Master
Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 2998 Location: Nashville
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CaffineAddict wrote: | By this reasoning, wouldn't a poker tournament be in the same situation?
For both fantasy sports and poker tournaments a one time fee is deposited on entry.
I have never played fantasy sports, but as I understand, the one who collects the most points receives the prize pool. This is the same for poker tournaments, whoever collects all of the chips/points is the winner. |
This is not how it works. If you win an ESPN fantasy league you get a cheesy t-shirt or a pennant. You certainly do not get cash or even a free entry for the next season. The prize has less value than your original entry fee let alone the entire prize pool for the league. This lawsuit was total bs and Humphey should have to eat the attorneys fees for both sides. |
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flafishy
Joined: 30 Nov 2004 Posts: 211 Location: Broward County, FL
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| nukeduke wrote: | | CaffineAddict wrote: | By this reasoning, wouldn't a poker tournament be in the same situation?
For both fantasy sports and poker tournaments a one time fee is deposited on entry.
I have never played fantasy sports, but as I understand, the one who collects the most points receives the prize pool. This is the same for poker tournaments, whoever collects all of the chips/points is the winner. |
This is not how it works. If you win an ESPN fantasy league you get a cheesy t-shirt or a pennant. You certainly do not get cash or even a free entry for the next season. The prize has less value than your original entry fee let alone the entire prize pool for the league. This lawsuit was total bs and Humphey should have to eat the attorneys fees for both sides. |
Oh, OK. I get the point. Thanks for clarifying. In cases where there is a cash prize pool, it's organized by the players and the Web sites basically are just mediums for the leagues to keep score. The league will pay the site a use fee, but other than that, the Web site itself isn't involved in the exchange of prize money. |
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chillrob 1K Club
Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 1117
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| flafishy wrote: | | nukeduke wrote: | | CaffineAddict wrote: | By this reasoning, wouldn't a poker tournament be in the same situation?
For both fantasy sports and poker tournaments a one time fee is deposited on entry.
I have never played fantasy sports, but as I understand, the one who collects the most points receives the prize pool. This is the same for poker tournaments, whoever collects all of the chips/points is the winner. |
This is not how it works. If you win an ESPN fantasy league you get a cheesy t-shirt or a pennant. You certainly do not get cash or even a free entry for the next season. The prize has less value than your original entry fee let alone the entire prize pool for the league. This lawsuit was total bs and Humphey should have to eat the attorneys fees for both sides. |
Oh, OK. I get the point. Thanks for clarifying. In cases where there is a cash prize pool, it's organized by the players and the Web sites basically are just mediums for the leagues to keep score. The league will pay the site a use fee, but other than that, the Web site itself isn't involved in the exchange of prize money. |
This still sounds the same as an online poker tournament to me. The players contribute a cash prize pool, and the house takes a fee.
This whole thing is total BS, and I don't know much about fantasy sports, but I have to believe it involves less skill than regular sports betting, let alone poker. Most of this country's laws favor almost unbeatable games (lottery, slots) over games that are beatable with skill and knowledge (poker, sports betting).
Rob |
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nukeduke ITH BBQ Host Master
Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 2998 Location: Nashville
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, it is not even remotely close to a poker tournament. Speaking of ESPN, since the lawsuit was brought agaist them, they don't collect prize pools or distribute winnings. In many leagues the participants don't know each other and have nothing at all riding on the outcome of the league other than the dorky t-shirt they will win if they claim the championship. All they provide is the software and stats to run a league which is, as advertised, a fantasy.
ESPN collects a fee from each player or the league manager and they keep the entire fee - not one dollar to the winner. How does that resemble a poker tournament? |
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chillrob 1K Club
Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 1117
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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I've never participated in anything like this, but I know there are leagues that play for real money. If they all were not for money, then obviously they would be legal and there would have been no reason for them to be specifically exempted in the UIGEA. If ESPN players just do it for fun then that was a ridiculous lawsuit against them, but I still think it is crazy that fantasy leagues that play for money are treated differently than those who bet on the outcome of a game.
Rob |
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flafishy
Joined: 30 Nov 2004 Posts: 211 Location: Broward County, FL
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| chillrob wrote: | I've never participated in anything like this, but I know there are leagues that play for real money. If they all were not for money, then obviously they would be legal and there would have been no reason for them to be specifically exempted in the UIGEA. If ESPN players just do it for fun then that was a ridiculous lawsuit against them, but I still think it is crazy that fantasy leagues that play for money are treated differently than those who bet on the outcome of a game.
Rob |
But the difference is, as I was trying to say in my second post after it occurred to me, is that the Web site -- ESPN, SportsLine, etc. -- is not involved in the distribution of prize money. That is handled by people in the leagues themselves, a function separate from the service ESPN, etc., provides. That gives ESPN, etc., full deniability.
A poker site does control the distribution of prize money. A silly distinction to be sure, but a distinction nonetheless. |
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chillrob 1K Club
Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 1117
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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They still facilitate the gambling activities, certainly as much as Neteller facilitates gambling activities. If Neteller is guilty, then whoever facilitates fantasy sports leagues in which money is changing hands is just as guilty.
Rob |
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flafishy
Joined: 30 Nov 2004 Posts: 211 Location: Broward County, FL
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| chillrob wrote: | They still facilitate the gambling activities, certainly as much as Neteller facilitates gambling activities. If Neteller is guilty, then whoever facilitates fantasy sports leagues in which money is changing hands is just as guilty.
Rob |
Maybe, maybe not. But the bottom line is that politically influential money bought a carveout for fantasy sports, and that's the big difference. |
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chillrob 1K Club
Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 1117
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: |
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You got it right there! Unfortuantely, our entire government is run my corrupt politicians who sell their votes to the highest bidder. It makes me sick and makes me want to move to another country.
Happy f*** fourth of July, fascist republic.
Rob |
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toronexti 53o
Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 4153
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| chillrob wrote: |
Happy f*** fourth of July, capitalistic republic.
Rob |
FYP |
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cybrarian Retired Moderator
Joined: 05 Dec 2003 Posts: 11230
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| toronexti wrote: | | chillrob wrote: |
Happy f*** fourth of July, plutocratic republic.
Rob |
FYP |
FYP...
Although it seems to me that this guy lost because his argument was ridiculous, not because a huge amount of money was thrown against him. |
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