|
|
| Author |
Message |
teknique
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 84 Location: UK
|
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: C-Betting / Firing a second barrel AK/AQ |
|
|
I find myself in this kind of situation a lot and I don't really feel like I play it well in general, today I think I played a few hands very badly including this one.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $5.00+$0.50 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
CO (t1095)
Button (t1785)
SB (t2030)
Hero (BB) (t1345)
UTG (t945)
UTG+1 (t1390)
MP1 (t930)
MP2 (t1730)
MP3 (t2250)
Hero's M: 17.93
Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
6 folds, Button calls t50, SB calls t25, Hero raises to t200, Button calls t150, 1 fold
Flop: (t450) , , (2 players)
Hero bets t150, Button calls t150
Turn: (t750) (2 players)
Hero bets t150, Button raises to t300, Hero folds
Total pot: t1050
On reflection, I'm not really sure if I should have raised a larger amount PF because I was out of position if he called. Post flop, I think I should have made a larger bet on the flop and then checked/folded the turn if he was still around, But I would like to hear some opinions.
I pretty much C-bet all the time unless the pot is multi-way and I don't like my chances of improving, but I feel quite lost playing the turn when my C-bet is called. |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
jmbreslin
Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 936
|
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Your CB is way too small, you're giving good odds to drawing hands there. If you are going to CB that flop you should be betting at least 300.
That said, an argument could be made for not CBing here. After the PF raise a proper CB represents a pretty big chunk of your stack, you're out of position with a missed hand, and that flop is a pretty good one for hands that might have limped and called your raise. |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
teknique
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 84 Location: UK
|
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jmbreslin wrote: | Your CB is way too small, you're giving good odds to drawing hands there. If you are going to CB that flop you should be betting at least 300.
That said, an argument could be made for not CBing here. After the PF raise a proper CB represents a pretty big chunk of your stack, you're out of position with a missed hand, and that flop is a pretty good one for hands that might have limped and called your raise. |
I think the reason I bet so small was I knew betting much more was commiting a heck of a lot of my stack on ace high, not C-betting just feels very weak and passive.. I might have 10 outs but hes not going to give me the odds to continue if I check.
I think the argument against the C-bet on this flop is also an argument for a C-bet, because there are high cards present that I could have connected with, but I know I don't play these spots well. |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
ciaran ITH Support
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 4781 Location: Alpharetta, GA
|
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jmbreslin wrote: | Your CB is way too small, you're giving good odds to drawing hands there. If you are going to CB that flop you should be betting at least 300.
That said, an argument could be made for not CBing here. After the PF raise a proper CB represents a pretty big chunk of your stack, you're out of position with a missed hand, and that flop is a pretty good one for hands that might have limped and called your raise. |
Pretty much this. The weak CB is far more telling (usually) than either checking or making a normal CB. If you check-raise often enough, they can't take for granted that a check is weakness (and there are some players against whom check-shoving in this actual spot would be best).
Also, there's 150 in the pot pre-flop when it gets to you, so just shoving isn't terrible. If I'm going to raise, I make it 250 generally, and I also check some of the time, depending on the opponents. |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
jmbreslin
Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 936
|
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| teknique wrote: |
I think the reason I bet so small was I knew betting much more was commiting a heck of a lot of my stack on ace high, not C-betting just feels very weak and passive.. I might have 10 outs but hes not going to give me the odds to continue if I check.
I think the argument against the C-bet on this flop is also an argument for a C-bet, because there are high cards present that I could have connected with, but I know I don't play these spots well. |
Problem is that's exactly what your CB looks like - "I know I'm supposed to CB here but I'm scared so I'll throw out a small one and see if it works."
The flaw in your 2nd point is that your hand didn't connect, which makes it more likely your opponent's did (unless he's also playing AK). The point of a CB is to charge your opponents to draw when you have a made hand, but to steal the pot when you missed. Here you've missed but there are so many hands he's unlikely to fold to your CB: AQ, KQ, KJ, TT, JT, QJ, 99, any two clubs...
As a general rule when I'm playing tourney NLHE, I won't CB with a missed hand when it represents a good chunk of my remaining stack unless I'm prepared to get it all in. And I wouldn't be prepared to get it all in with that flop at this point in the tourney. |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
ImBetterDude
Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 747 Location: California
|
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think you played the hand alright until the flop.
When I am deciding whether or not to throw out a C Bet, I look at the board and think to myself, "Self, does this look like a flop that my opponent would hit?" And this flop would hit pretty much any hand worth limping/calling a raise, don't you think? You can assume he limped with medium/large cards, and being that you have both an A and a K, you can put him on J's and Q's and 10's maybe, right? At least one of those cards he probably holds, and that board connects very nicely with his perspective hole cards.
Checking isn't always weak, especially if you're kinda tricky and throw in a check/raise from time to time. A K is a strong hand and I like that you didn't over bet it here to merely swoop the blinds and limp. You padded the pot with a nice little preflop raise, and because it was little, it allowed you to get away from the hand if you missed the flop and encountered strength, which apparently you have.
Next time I think you should play it the same way, and if you miss the flop, try checking. Maybe he'll check behind and you'll complete your hand on the turn. |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
leofric
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Worcester, UK
|
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think one of the issues preflop is whether or not you want the button to come along. If you don't then you obviously raise higher whereas if you don't mind playing AK out of position then.... well why not just check? Given the stack sizes its not an unreasonable way of seeing the flop before deciding what you want to do.
On the flop itself I'd probably look for a slightly bigger c-bet. You missed the flop and although you have maybe 10 outs I wouldnt want to be drawing on them. With a pot of 450 it doesnt make much sense to bet 150 and give him 4:1 odds to call.
That said I'd probably look to bet around 300 which would come to around the same as you put in anyway on the flop and turn.
And of course you can always claim the 150 is really a blocking bet!! |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
ImBetterDude
Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 747 Location: California
|
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm not sure if checking AK from the BB with a few limpers is ever a good idea, though I'm far from a poker guru. In fact, I don't think I've ever limped AK or checked/called from the BB/SB. RARELY I'll open-limp with AK from UTG in hope that some over ambitious donk raises behind me and I can 3 bet him...but I do that play maybe 1/10 times I get AK from UTG. Normally I just raise. |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
ciaran ITH Support
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 4781 Location: Alpharetta, GA
|
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ImBetterDude wrote: | | I'm not sure if checking AK from the BB with a few limpers is ever a good idea, though I'm far from a poker guru. In fact, I don't think I've ever limped AK or checked/called from the BB/SB. RARELY I'll open-limp with AK from UTG in hope that some over ambitious donk raises behind me and I can 3 bet him...but I do that play maybe 1/10 times I get AK from UTG. Normally I just raise. |
This is one of the ideal spots for it. You're OOP, with a stack size that will be really awkward if you raise, miss, and are faced with the decision about a continuation bet. |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
leofric
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Worcester, UK
|
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ciaran wrote: | | ImBetterDude wrote: | | I'm not sure if checking AK from the BB with a few limpers is ever a good idea, though I'm far from a poker guru. In fact, I don't think I've ever limped AK or checked/called from the BB/SB. RARELY I'll open-limp with AK from UTG in hope that some over ambitious donk raises behind me and I can 3 bet him...but I do that play maybe 1/10 times I get AK from UTG. Normally I just raise. |
This is one of the ideal spots for it. You're OOP, with a stack size that will be really awkward if you raise, miss, and are faced with the decision about a continuation bet. |
I was going to say I'd often limp with AK and the like from the SB where you're OOP to everyone for the reasons above (oh and I'm no poker Guru either!)  |
|
| Back to top of Forum |
|
 |
|
|