Bust

[Bluedaq]

Have you ever been bust and have you played rabscuttle or just used good table selection?


rabscuttle :

Well the truth is I had about 750k online at one point before giving it all back. I started with 5k on pokerstars about maybe 2-3 years ago and ran it up to 250k in a few months. I then took that to UB and ramped up to 750k before proceeding to tilt at times as well as play in crappy games that I had no business being in. I never once stopped to consider just how good I had it at the time. When things are going good you take them for granted and don't give the things/relationships that make life what it is the proper respect and attention they deserve. You assume its always going to be that way.

I guess the reason I posted in the first place was to show everyone here that even if you run good, be careful with your money. I was watching a poor fellow tonight consistently get the crap beat out of him -- but he wouldn't leave the game when it was obvious he couldn't beat his opponent. He reminded me of myself and it was a pretty sad revelation. Sometimes you can't win on a given night, and sometimes you need to realize some people are just better than you are. That's what happened to me - I never got up from a losing session and I played people that exceeded my skill level imo.

Am I good enough to rebuild again? Not sure, but I'll find out. The bigger question to me is, "Is poker really worth it?". The time and energy spent on it certainly doesn't seem worth it at times. One of my best friends (and she doesn't play poker) told me that even though I went broke, everything is gonan be ok because ultimately Poker doesnt define who you are. You do.

Peace.

[Bluedaq]

Reply from another pro


I do hope you start playing again at some point. Your instincts are great and theres no reason why you shouldnt be wildly successful doing this........

I dont think you have a real good sense or perspective of your relative skill level from game to game.

Im not sure if that can ever be taught, but its one of the most important skills to have, otherwise we will keep placing ourselves in situations that simply arent good for us.

In any case, i know it seems like a long road back, but dont rush. Give yourself some short term goals and dont treat poker like its the alpha and the omega and youll be back on top soon enough. Good luck.

[robrobrob]

I can't even imagine ammasing three quarters of a million and not cashing out at least a half million of it. Anyone that irresponsible with their money deserves to be broke. Reading htis makes me sick to my stomach.

rob

[Chevin]

For those unfarmiliar with this, Rabscuttle is a Pokerstars 100-200 regular with a reputation-well founded in my view-as a very talented limit holdem player. I've played 30-60 with him and found his hand reading skills extraordinary.

He recently posted on Neverwin's forum that he had gone bust and lost around $750K.

Now, what you have to understand is that Rabs'-to my understanding-isn't a profesional player. A pro, dependent on the income poker provides, would simply drop down limits a step at a time until he started winning again. We all hear stories that every pro' has gone bust a few times, but I can almost guarantee you Pilchard has never come close to going broke.

Another thing worth noting is that Rabs' has been playing 300-600 LH and 300-600 O/8. At these levels, you are playing against some of the best players in the world and even someone that has been wildly successful at slightly lower limits could be a big 'dog against these guys.


I agree with Rob on this one. If I ever lost as much as $50k my laptop would go in the river and it's bye-bye poker.

[Bluedaq]

I was only joking about pilchard ever going bust and the question was really about game selection.

Also Rabs not being a professional pro and if he was he would have moved down I think rabscuttle is a tilter and probably more likely move up if he lost a ton of money.

Thats what I would do!

[pilchard]

Apart from the first 3 months or so when I went bust on numerous occasions I have not gone broke in the last 3 years.

However, I am probably one of the most sensible (boring) players alive. Although I have played a little bit of 50/100 and 100/200 I recognised pretty quickly that the standard was, on the whole, very good and I had no desire to pit my skills against other strong players. I was very comfortable at 15/30-30/60 and up to 2000$ NL/PL games so why get involved at higher stakes.

When I have gone through the inevitable bad runs in the past that have hurt my bankroll I just switched to one table or dropped a limit and worked myself back up. Through a conservative bankroll stategy I am now in a position where I would need the mother of all bad runs to mean I have to drop limits now.

Your point about game selection is a good one. I have no intention of playing strong players. I seek out poor players. I'll leave a table straight away if I feel the general standard is too tough. Ego is a very dangerous thing and can lead to the kind of problems outlined by Rabscuttle.

[PauliF]

pilchard is my hero
seriously

in 15 months of playing pro... i went bust twice
thank god for rake back

[JoeStimpy]

Interesting thread, you mention you utilize a conservative bankroll strategy Pilchard, I'm assuming this means you like to maintain a BR of ~500BB? Or at the high limits you play (and I'm sure even with great table selection you run into some pretty stiff competition) do you find an even larger BR is preferable?

[pilchard]

My bankroll is well over 1000 big bets of which I only ever keep up to 500 big bets online at any given point.

I think most people underestimate the effect cashing out regularly has on your bankroll (and when poker is your main source of income you have to cash out regularly). If you are going to play for a living you need the discipline not to keep dipping into your bankroll and that can be difficult especially when you are on a good run.

[norwalk]

Ok the dollar amounts are no where close to what you guys are discussing but the result is as upsetting to me. In the past I had a history of moving up levels to quick and going bust as a result. Between Jan 2004 when I began playing and Aug of 2005 I had done this several times.

Starting in Sept 2005 I swore I was done with this pattern. Starting with $80 I sat myself playing 5/10 cent PLO on FTP with a carefully laid out plan for advancing levels. After about 6 months of play I topped at a little over $1400 and was playing at 50/$1 (I am aware still under rolled for this level but I was taking willing to take some risk in an effort to move up). After a very bad session in which I had Aces full drawn out by a royal flush and top set drawn out by quads 3 times I chased a loose player to $1/2 and over the next 36 hours busted myself. It was sad. Even after the first bad session at $1/2 I went back just knowing that I could outplay these players (not sure if this is true or just that horrible ego as I did take some horrible beats).

Needless to say, after destroying 6 months of hard work I am very disgusted with myself. I know I am going to make another run at building a bankroll.

Can you offer any suggestions, such as removing money from online account, to help someone like myself to avoid these pitfalls in the future.

Also, I now have all this PLO data in PTO but do not fully know how to evaluate it. Is there a good online guide that you can recommend or do you have tips on how to look at individual players and assign styles to them?

[honestbleeps]

I'm in the same boat as you, Norwalk. I turned a few hundred into over $20,000 over the course of about 1.5 years...

Now I'm back down to $5k and I'm disgusted as well. I don't know what the deal is... I'd love to be able to figure it out, but I really look at my hands, and I know I'm not making that many hugely stupid mistakes (though I definitely make some).

[robrobrob]

my advice is just play within your bankroll. I started with $25, ran it up to $50, cashed out the original $25 and have not re-deposited since, this was 2.5 years ago. Ran it up nicely, withdrew all but $200 spring semester last year. July second, I started playing fairly seriously again, and rebuilt back to a bankroll that could support a 25/50 full table game, or a 10/20 short handed game. I always play with at least 250 BB when I move up, and drop down if I ever get to 200 BB. THis is agressive, and has required backtracking, but I keep a healthy roll, and play accordingly. SInce I spend most of my time in short handed tougher games these days, I am playing a lot of games where I am rolled to the tune of 1250 BB. My current focus is on mastering 2-4 handd play, so I want to do it safely. WHen I decide to play full tables, I draw the line at 15/30, as this is a more comfy cushion, as I prefer having over 300 BB despite my agressive bankroll management inclinations, as my last run at 20/40 had em runbning bad right off, and I want a bigger cushion when I go back this time to go longer before dropping back down.

If you can't control yourself, no money mangement trickery is going to likely change it. Just be responsible.

rob

[Bluedaq]

Steamers usually play tournaments and sit n goes and there is a reason for this when you are bust you are dead and you are less likely to have major tilting session because its a limited buy in (and survival instinct takes affect).


You can tilt a ton of cash in Limit holdem and cash games in general.

Here is Gigabets Post/article: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=14976&m_id=65572

'The most important thing for me when he discusses the way he deals with tilt I still don't understand 70% of it.

'You might think that you can avoid this trap of psychological betrayal by turning your “noise filter” all the way up. While that will work for a time, the noise builds and builds, until everything that you have blocked comes pouring out at one time, which creates the very worst tilt imaginable. Believe me, I have been there many times. I have come to realize that it is much better to acknowledge the negative or angry thoughts as they arrive. That doesn’t mean just noticing their presence; when they approach, actually talk to your mind and announce their arrival, then identify the reasons behind the thoughts. As your mind comes to realize how trivial and meaningless these thoughts are, it will eventually stop creating them in the first place. It takes a lot of time and effort to do this, but the long-term results will be well worth it.'

Unfortunatly it seems like Scott Fischman went on a massive tilt frenzy.

[pilchard]

I keep saying it but the problems people have with losing derives from their unrealistic perspective of winning.

"Ego" has been used in this thread and you have to learn to control it. Not only can you run bad for a really long time whilst playing good poker you can run very good for a long period of time playing average poker (which you actually mistake as good poker).

That is not to say that this is the case for anyone posting here but the sooner you accept the reality of poker, the easier the swings are to deal with.

[Bluedaq]

I think Rabs might have lost everything due to a superuser but there was comment about one of his leaks



"I dont think you have a real good sense or perspective of your relative skill level from game to game."

How would you go about improving perspective and awareness.