Battle of the Bigstacks versus An all-in

[SpaceLord]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 500/1000 Blinds 100 Ante (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t24635)
SpaceLordOO (UTG) (t57185)
UTG+1 (t62553)
MP1 (t3785)
MP2 (t3673)
CO (t29119)
Button (t65286)
SB (t11705)

SpaceLordOO's M: 24.86

Preflop: SpaceLordOO is UTG with Q, Q
SpaceLordOO raises to t3000, UTG+1 calls t3000, 3 folds, Button calls t3000, SB raises to t11605 (All-In), 1 fold, SpaceLordOO calls t8605, UTG+1 calls t8605, Button calls t8605

Flop: (t48220) 10, 4, 6 (4 players, 1 all-in)
SpaceLordOO bets t27000, UTG+1 calls t27000, 1 fold

Turn: (t102220) 5 (3 players, 1 all-in)
SpaceLordOO bets t18480 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t18480

River: (t139180) K (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t139180

Results in white below:
SB had J, J (one pair, Jacks).
SpaceLordOO had Q, Q (one pair, Queens).
UTG+1 had K, K (three of a kind, Kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 won t139180

I was 25th or so in chips, and this hand busted me.

Can I fold at any point?

Do I shove QQ preflop?

Do I bet this dry flop/sidepot?
What do I think when he snap calls me every time I bet?

This is a toughie.

[Cript]

Shove preflop...shoving flop is terrible in my opinion. If we're behind, he instacalls. If we're ahead, he can find a fold.

[cowboyinexile]

No offense, but I think both of you played the hand incorrectly. I'd prefer to isolate with your hand, so I'm shoving pre-flop. UTG+1, with that much action should have done the same. Heck, I think UTG+1, with his hand, should have isolated you before SB had a chance to move in. Any decision you make after that I can't fault as, well if its two big pairs against each other and you are on the short end, that happens.

Without improvement into a dry side pot, if you call here, then I think checking it down is the best option. If UTG+1 wants to give action, with the naked overpair, its tough, but the way you played it, I'm inclined to get away from it here.

[SpaceLord]

Ok, here's my rationale:

Do I want to gamble with a huge stack versus two players with QQ? I don't think so. If I shove preflop, I am doing just that.

The table, including the UTG +1 player, has been passive, and I have been stealing my share preflop. I've got enough chips to steal, and chip up hugely as we approach the bubble.

If I mini-raise preflop, and he calls, he could be calling for two good reasons: Great pot odds, and he closes the betting, getting to see a flop.

My biggest problem was, he was fairly new to the table, and was snap calling everything.

Perhaps I could have got at least some information on the flop via checking. I imagine, with his hand, he would have bet out. Depending on the odds, I might have folded. I still had a great stack, and my stealing could have continued through the bubble, I'd only put 25% of my big stack in the middle.

Of course, if a Ace came down, I would have probably frozen up. A King would also cause me to slow down, but perhaps not as much.

[SpaceLord]

Let's see:

Initial Chips in pot: 2300
My bet: + 3000
Call + 3000
Button Shove: +11605

So, 19605 to me after the short Button shoves.

I need to call 8605 to win? 19605, ~ 2.5:1.
UTG needs to call 8605 to win 27210, over 3:1.

If I mini-raise, lets say 8k more, he need to call 16605 to win 37K, still well over 2:1

If I shove my 42k stack in, UTG needs 90% of his stack to win over 135k.

[jfletcher]

I essentially agree that Hero should have pushed after the shorty pushed. He's then isolating the shorty with QQ. The only thing that really worries him here is one of the two cold-callers in between has AA, KK or AK, and that's not very likely. Most players would reraise Hero with one of those hands. (Of course, in this case, one did have KK, so Hero was screwed no matter what.)

I don't buy the logic that this is a time to play conservatively to chip-up approachign the bubble. First of all, I'm not sure you can treat the bubble of a small tourney the same as a big tourney. Some players will play tight to make the money, but a lot won't.

Also, all of that bubble chipping up isn't going to win him as many chips as he can get right here if he stacks the shorty plus takes the bets from the guys in the middle. That's a huge chip up.

[maf66]

If an A or K had come down on the flop, you would have regretted not pushing pre.
Tough spot but I have to agree with the others. You have to push to isolate. Just unlucky that he had a real hand in that spot.

[emmapeel]

I'm pushing pre-flop.

The two other players shouldn't have anything for QQ to worry about so it looks the right play for me.

Calling and playing out of position when the pot on the flop is around the size of your stack seems like a mistake to me.

I'm betting the flop as played but it is still pretty much a pot commiting play so I might just shove all my chips in.

EP

[emmapeel]

I think Hero has to bet out on the flop too. The pot is already big so it is worth trying to win it immediately. Checking the flop might cause Hero to lose a big pot that was there for the taking.

People sometimes just call with KK+ but usually in later position. I think the chance of someone having this is small enough for a push pre-flop to be profitable.

I wouldn't be surprised if folding pre-flop were better than just calling the push. With calling the push you have to know why you are doing that and not just that you think pushing is too risky. Is Hero playing for a set or an over-pair flop. To me it seems like a play without a plan.

Tough hand though when all your chips are at stake but I think pushing pre-flop is still best.

EP

[Taardvark]

Shove preflop. Villian really has to have AA, KK, or AK to call you here. Unfortunately that is the case. It's a bit of a cooler but as Cript points out you gain nothing by getting it all in on the flop and you reduce fold equity to almost zero if villian has any kind of hand. You're supposed to go busted on a hand like this unless you are Phil Hellmuth and can find a fold somehow preflop.

[Radford]

Just push PF.

[toronexti]

[SpaceLord]

My stack was 20/600. 540ish get paid.

My table was passive.

Am I going to gamble with a very large stack versus 2 callers of my UTG raise, holding QQ?

If I shove and win what's in the middle, my chip stack increases by less than 20%.

If I shove, get a caller, and win, I take the chip lead.

If I shove, and either of the two big stacks at the table have AK, I am flipping when I don't think I need to flip coins right now.

Of course, the board through the turn was so favorable, I became pot commited.

[toronexti]

[taz115]

Don't be afraid of flips... lots of players would fold AK to a big push, especially if they only called preflop with it.

I am 100% willing to shove preflop here. If he showed me AK before I had to act I'd still push your better than even money and there are chips in the pot already.

If he has AA your out, it happens. In fact it happened to me a couple of nights ago.

You can't be afraid to go bust on the bubble, or at any time really. And your line didn't save you from going bust anyway. Unless and Ace or King falls your getting your chips in no mattter what.