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AlamedaMike
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 2042
Location: Alameda, CA
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 Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: BarryT>WA/WB |
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Hi Barry,
I have asked you this before and most times I identify the wa/wb correctly. However, in a low limit game where the player will most likely call your bet on the turn with top pair any kicker vs. a higher limit where they might fold, does that change the rules any?
| barryt wrote: |
A "Way Ahead or Way Behind" situation requires the following:
• You are heads up
• You do not know whether you are ahead or behind
• If you are ahead, your opponent has very few outs (typically two or three)
• If you are behind, you have very few outs |
here is a recent hand that I played where I checked the turn - I think that this might have been a mistake on my part. It is LLHE 1/2 on full tilt.
I would like to discuss pros and cons for betting the turn when checked to. Usually, in a wa/wb and you are in position it is when it is bet to you on the flop with the top pair that you bot presumably share.
Here I raised preflop and he chased his blind.
Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with  ,  .
3 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.
Flop: (4.50 SB)  ,  ,  (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.
I think flop play is straight forward.
Turn: (3.25 BB)  (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.
i do not see any reason for me to check the turn here. If he flopped two pair he most likely would have check raised the flop. If he had a hand as good as AJ to begin with I think that he would have shown more action on the flop by either betting or check raising.
WLLH Lee Jones recommends that HU if checked to then you should bet if I remember correctly. Maybe ITH does as well.
River: (3.25 BB)  (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.
Well, I checked the turn so I need to call the river imo. The 9 does complete some draws that I might have let get there runner runner. My fault if he has a straight now.
Final Pot: 5.25 BB
Assuming that he would not fold with any Ace and assuming I am ahead then a bet on the turn is by far a much better approach. I don't have notes on this player other than I think that he is a weak player. He is not likely to check raise as a bluff. I bet the turn I can fold to a ck/r.
Checking my other hand histories I usually bet the turn here, this time I didn't - I just did not want to deal with a check/raise at this point. I had several good hands beat and was dealing with tilt - trying to stay off that is.
A five word reply - "bet turn and call river"- will be sufficient. Some of the other players on this forum might benefit from your wisdom if they do not frequent your site much.
Thanks |
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jfletcher
Will work for food
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 3204
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Mike, I had posted a NL cash hand similar to this a while back, and wondered about the WA/WB play. I think the conclusion we came to then was that it's better to bet against straightforward/weak players and check against aggro/tricky players. The logic is that the CR from an ABC player is almost always a hand that beats you (so you can fold with confidence), and also that the turn check will induce some bluffs on the river from the aggro players.
Anyway, I'll be interested to hear if Barry says that logic applies also to limit. |
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jeffnc
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Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 7267
Location: NC, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| I think this hands plays a lot safer in limit than NL. It doesn't seem like a really strong WA/WB case anyway. He could have virtually anything, and does not necessarily put you on an ace just because you raised and bet the flop - he's seen it all before. By the river, he's betting usually because he's decided you don't have an ace. Even if he does have you beat by now, he would not be used to players raising preflop and then checking a pair of aces on the turn into a dryish board when he hasn't shown any strength. You could even at least think about raising the river here, the way you played it. That would definitely not be a play you'd use in a WA/WB situation. Seems to have some characteristics, but not all. Interested in what the bear says. |
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AlamedaMike
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 2042
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| jeffnc wrote: | | I think this hands plays a lot safer in limit than NL. It doesn't seem like a really strong WA/WB case anyway. He could have virtually anything, and does not necessarily put you on an ace just because you raised and bet the flop - he's seen it all before. By the river, he's betting usually because he's decided you don't have an ace. Even if he does have you beat by now, he would not be used to players raising preflop and then checking a pair of aces on the turn into a dryish board when he hasn't shown any strength. You could even at least think about raising the river here, the way you played it. That would definitely not be a play you'd use in a WA/WB situation. Seems to have some characteristics, but not all. Interested in what the bear says. |
Thanks - it does not match wa/wb mainly because he did not lead at the pot representing an Ace, just checked and called which could be anything. There is a possible draw on the board.
My point in asking is if I should have given a free card on the turn - I think this was a mistake on my part. The only reason to check here, if any is that I might be behind and get checked raised by a slowplaying player - most like to check raise the turn with a set or two pair.
If I get check raised on the turn I need to fold, I think. |
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jeffnc
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Location: NC, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I bet the turn. |
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AlamedaMike
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Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| jeffnc wrote: | | I bet the turn. |
And fold to a raise? |
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jeffnc
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Location: NC, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| AlamedaMike wrote: | | jeffnc wrote: | | I bet the turn. |
And fold to a raise? |
Very possibly. It's difficult for me to play now without PokerTracker stats, or some table time under my belt in a live game  |
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