Any merit in this kind of online strategy?

[Da_Big_Fish]

A friend over lunch told me about someone he works with that employs this strategy. He has that the guy's bankroll is over $1000 because of it.

You go to a low limit no limit table, say .25/.50, and buy in for a short stack amount like $20. You wait until you get one of the top 5 hands and when you do you go all in. The guy that employs this says that starting with a short stack always gets you calls from bigger stacks. That's how he makes his money.

Apparently, this guys has started with $50 and made $1000 out of it.

What do you think?

[Cript]

It's called "short stacking." and does work sometimes...Harrington mentions in his book that he employed this strategy when he was new to NL.

At any rate, it eliminates any post flop play and only allows you to win so much.

I imagine, though; that he'd be paying a ton of blinds, then taking a ton of blinds, then ocasionally doubling up with a big hand and ocasionally losing with a big hand.

I don't see an advantage.

[Taardvark]

There is some merit but $20 at a $50 buy in table is a little too much. You usually see this with $10 or $15 buy-ins at that level. $20 is a bit of an awkward stack size for the fold or shove strategy at this level.

[Cript]

[Radford]

I just can't see how this guy has made $1000 using this strategy

[emmapeel]

I think the hands in question would be AK+ JJ+, which is 3% of all hands.

I think this is a very interesting strategy. It does mean that you will be playing only once every 3.5 rounds which is a little boring. Your push may not always be called too which will make it even more boring. Your hand must also make up for the numerous loss blinds when called.

On the plus side it means you can play much more tables so the plan only has to be slightly +EV to be better than a normal plan.

Too boring for me to try out but I can't see any obvious flaws yet as long as most of your opponents aren't paying attention.

EP

[Neilis]

This would bore me to death, but I'm pretty sure it's a winning strategy at low stakes.

[ImBetterDude]

Idunno about this. One time every 30 hands you go all in, and 90% of the time that you raise everybody folds and you win 1.5 blinds. 10% of the time you get called, and you're probably 75% to win on average.

Someone crank those numbers and tell me what size stack you would need to make the strategy +EV. It would probably be a stack that's large enough to discourage action even more.

[Soultwister]

I do not think it would well unless you use a shortstack's strength better, in a higher variance style.

Assume a standard scenario. You have A8s, some fish limps, some TAG/LAG player iso-raises and you jam because your hand is still ahead of iso-raisers range. Even better is that people call with all kind of trash, and while you will generally be a 60% favorite here, people will either make bad folds too often while they got the equity to call, or will start calling you down extremely light because they hate shortstacks.

I think good shortstacking can be decently profitable, but I still think most the money can be made postflop in NL, because the largest mistakes are made there. At the lowest stakes, people are so terrible at postflop play that I think buying in full and work your way up the normal way will be achieved much faster.

[Stew21]

[Taardvark]

[Fumseck]

Top 5 hands is not enough. The blinds will eat you up.

Shortstacking is discussed by Miller in Getting Started in Holdem. If you want to do this, I strongly suggest you read it.

It can be profitable but, as Neillis mentioned, it is boring.

[Taardvark]

Here are a couple of examples from tonight on why these guys end up making money. It was beyond obvious these guys had pretty big starting hands.

PokerStars Game #19369742457: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -
Table 'Pierretta V' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: amazinmets73 ($118.50 in chips)
Seat 2: zo1216 ($79.20 in chips)
Seat 3: Giguere88 ($62.55 in chips)
Seat 4: thedacto ($28 in chips)
Seat 5: LakeEast2 ($100 in chips)
Seat 7: omahondo ($149.55 in chips)
Seat 8: gimo1 ($51.25 in chips)
Seat 9: T Aardvark ($80.95 in chips)
zo1216: posts small blind $0.50
Giguere88: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to T Aardvark [Js As]
thedacto: raises $2 to $3
LakeEast2: folds
omahondo: folds
gimo1: folds
T Aardvark: calls $3
amazinmets73: folds
zo1216: calls $2.50
Giguere88: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [4h Td 3c]
zo1216: checks
Giguere88: bets $5
thedacto: raises $5 to $10
T Aardvark: folds
zo1216: folds
Giguere88: calls $5
*** TURN *** [4h Td 3c] [4d]
Giguere88: checks
thedacto: bets $10
Giguere88: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [4h Td 3c 4d] [5h]
Giguere88: bets $39.55 and is all-in
thedacto: calls $5 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($34.55) returned to Giguere88
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Giguere88: shows [Th Ac] (two pair, Tens and Fours)
thedacto: shows [Ks Kh] (two pair, Kings and Fours)
thedacto collected $59.05 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $62 | Rake $2.95
Board [4h Td 3c 4d 5h]
Seat 1: amazinmets73 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: zo1216 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Giguere88 (big blind) showed [Th Ac] and lost with two pair, Tens and Fours
Seat 4: thedacto showed [Ks Kh] and won ($59.05) with two pair, Kings and Fours
Seat 5: LakeEast2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: omahondo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: gimo1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: T Aardvark folded on the Flop

PokerStars Game #19370067375: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -
Table 'Pierretta V' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: amazinmets73 ($105.50 in chips)
Seat 2: zo1216 ($101.65 in chips)
Seat 3: Giguere88 ($55 in chips)
Seat 4: elion2703 ($15.65 in chips)
Seat 6: ilmercato ($57.40 in chips)
Seat 7: omahondo ($156.55 in chips)
Seat 8: gimo1 ($47.10 in chips)
Seat 9: T Aardvark ($107.35 in chips)
Giguere88: posts small blind $0.50
elion2703: posts big blind $1
MBZAMG: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to T Aardvark [Qc 9c]
ilmercato: folds
omahondo: folds
gimo1: calls $1
T Aardvark: folds
amazinmets73: folds
zo1216: folds
Giguere88: folds
elion2703: raises $14.65 to $15.65 and is all-in
gimo1: calls $14.65
*** FLOP *** [3c 9s 4d]
*** TURN *** [3c 9s 4d] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [3c 9s 4d 5c] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
elion2703: shows [Ts Ah] (a pair of Threes)
gimo1: mucks hand
elion2703 collected $30.25 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $31.80 | Rake $1.55
Board [3c 9s 4d 5c 3s]
Seat 1: amazinmets73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: zo1216 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Giguere88 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: elion2703 (big blind) showed [Ts Ah] and won ($30.25) with a pair of Threes
Seat 6: ilmercato folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: omahondo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: gimo1 mucked [Qh Js]
Seat 9: T Aardvark folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[el Pepe]

I know few regulars doing this at NL50 6max and NL100 6max. Like Soultwister said, it's not just push fold depending on your own hand. If they push from utg its usually great hand. But they 3-bet more lightly from button or blinds if someone has limped or trying to steal. Over the small samplesize I have on them they seem to play profitable.
I think its based on that players call utg pushes too lightly when they have seen the shortstacker pushing from blinds with KT or A5. And its always minbuyin and if they double they change table.

[chrisjp]