Another Starting Hands Question....

[Pubster77]

I was wondering what you guys would consider early position, middle position, and late position.

Sometimes I am playing a hand such as KQ, and am 3rd to act. In this situation using Matthews starting hands chart, im not sure if I should fold or call.

What do you guys think is the best way to classifiy positions 3 and 6 (in terms of early, middle, or late)?

SB
BB
1 - early
2 - early
3 - ???
4 - mid
5 - mid
6 - ???
7 - late
8 - late

Thanks in advance for your help!!

[torch]

Think of it backwards.

Starte with the button
2 Late
3 Middle
X Early

In your example, 6 is middle and 3 is early.

[janeg]

Hi Pubster ... I usually think of it as follows

The SB, BB and Button always exist. The Button is always Late position. The other positions are slotted in based on number of people at the table, with the first person to act being 'Under the Gun' (UTG)

With 7 players
------------------
SB
BB
UTG - Early
UTG+1 - Early
MP - Middle Position = 3rd to act
CO - Late
Button - Late

With 8 players
------------------
SB
BB
UTG - Early
UTG+1 - Early
MP - Middle = 3rd to act
MP + 1 - Middle
CO - Late
Button - Late

And with 9 at the table
----------------------------
SB
BB
UTG - Early
UTG+1 - Early
MP - MIddle = 3rd to act
MP+1 - Middle
MP+2 - Middle
CO - Late
Button - Late

And if there are 10 at the table
--------------------------------------
SB
BB
UTG - Early
UTG+1 - Early
UTG+2 - Early = 3rd to act
MP - MIddle
MP+1 - Middle
MP+2 - Middle
CO - Late
Button - Late

Key determining factor for 'middle' position being the number of people to act after you The more people acting after you, the stronger the hand you need. With 9 at the table, 3rd to act has only 4 players behind him so limping with KQo is less risky. If there are 10 people at the table, 3rd to act has 5 players acting after him so he needs a slightly stronger hand (KQs).

Hope that helps

[mchilger]

I designed the charts for the way Torch explains it. You should work backwards from the button. The button and cutoff are always late position. The next three are middle and the next one, two, or three are early.

So in an 8-handed game, there is only one early position player. In a 9-handed game, two. In a 7-handed game, the UTG player ought to use the charts for middle position.

As I have said before, there have been a slew of questions about these charts. I will work very hard in the 2nd edition to make sure these types of questions are crystal clear in the book to ensure that everyone is using the charts as intended.

Tx, Matthew

[Pubster77]

Thanks for the responses.

They really help a lot.

Regarding the last post, in a 7 or 8 player game is it still profitable playing starting hands as recommended in Matthews starting hands chart?

Sometimes when im playing in a 7 or 8 player game I think that because the game is now a little smaller I should be playing more starting hands, and so i get away from the starting hands chart. Do you think Im overthinking things in this situation?

[taz115]

The charts are not by any means an optimal strategy. They describe a general set of hands and a general way to play them preflop. So yes they still apply to an 8 handed, but only as much as they apply to a 10 handed game.

In other words, noone is playing perfect preflop poker by following charts. As you become a better poker player and you identify why you should raise instead of call in a certain situation against certain types of players you are starting to understand poker beyond the 'chart' level.

I started off playing like a robot using Matthews charts, and they did very well for me. After a while I had them memorized and a while after that I was playing on my own, sometimes raising KQo in EP and sometimes calling with it.

Hopefully that addresses your question, the awnswer is yes and no

[mchilger]

Pubster, the charts are for beginning to intermediate players. I don't think those types of players should stray "too much" from the charts. If you are quite experienced, happy with your post flop play, and consider yourself intermediate to advanced, then you should definitely stray some from the charts depending on the game conditions and your style of play. One adjustment is that you could raise with a few more hands than indicated in the charts in a 7-8 handed game.

One big point that I have always argued is that the better player you are, the more hands you can play. Conversely, the less experienced you are the fewer hands you should play. This is one aspect of poker that makes it a hard game to learn - you can't simply emulate what you see from the pros in certain aspects of the game. Just because they raise preflop with a certain hand in a certain type of situation doesn't mean you should too. Beginners should start off by playing very tight and then slowly loosen up their game as they gain more experience.

Matthew