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Willem
2K Club
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2685
Location: Netherlands
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 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: An interesting $8/$16 hand |
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Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $8/$16
6 players
Converter
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with  
2 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, CO caps, Hero calls.
Villain he is a LAGTAG (something like 38/28 ). His range here is quite wide, so I 3-bet him with a wide range also. (T9o is the probably the bottom of my range here though.)
Flop:    (9.5SB, 2 players)
CO bets, Hero ???
How do we play this? |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22651
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Raise, call a three bet. Raise turn.
T9o is a fairly aggressive 3bet pre. He needs to be fairly poor post-flop, I think. |
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Willem
2K Club
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2685
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | T9o is a fairly aggressive 3bet pre. He needs to be fairly poor post-flop, I think. |
Most players here play quite aggressive preflop, but quite straightforward postflop when you play back at them. I think T9o is doable as long as he doesn't get tricky postflop. And the fact hat he caps make it easier for me to play the hand after the flop, as he is probably quite strong. Even if he caps some suited connector stuff, his range is still mostly AA-TT, AK and AQ.
I obviously wouldn't 3bet him if I was CO and he was the hijack. (His range is strong then.) |
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the_hawk
Chelsea FTW!
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 4447
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | Raise, call a three bet. Raise turn. |
Just so I'm clear, are you saying that you should only call the 3-bet so you then have a chance to raise the turn? That is, the strategy is to bloat the pot as much as possible? |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the strategy is to bloat. Raise flop!
For iso-raising T9o I would like to see a pretty foldy post flop player... |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22651
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| the_hawk wrote: | | nsidestrate wrote: | | Raise, call a three bet. Raise turn. |
Just so I'm clear, are you saying that you should only call the 3-bet so you then have a chance to raise the turn? That is, the strategy is to bloat the pot as much as possible? |
Yes, so long as the four doesn't pair. Another diamond probably wouldn't faze me. |
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Willem
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Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2685
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | Raise, call a three bet. Raise turn. |
These were exactly my thoughts. He either has an overpair and will probably mistake my raise for a semi-bluff and 3bet, allowing me to call the 3bet and raise the turn and bloat the pot as much as possible. Or he has AK, AQ and might check the turn to me, but he will probably call down if I raise the flop. So I will maximize against his entire range by raising this flop.
This also shows why capping OOP is bad. Now that he caps, I know he really has something. Here, it allows me to maximize the amount I win. In another scenario, it might save me a few bets by electing not to bluff since his range is so strong. For instance, if I were to have 87s here, bluffing would be EV-. I might still bluff it but for balancing purposes only, not to for immediate EV.
Compare this with the scenario where he called my 3-bet and check-raised the turn. Now I would have far less information to play correctly. (And will therefore make more mistakes.)
Anyway, here's what happened next:
Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $8/$16
6 players
Converter
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with
2 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, CO caps, Hero calls.
Flop: (9.5SB, 2 players)
CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.
Turn:  (7.75BB, 2 players)
CO bets, Hero ???
Continue as planned? |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Call and raise a non diamond river? |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22651
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Not the best possible turn, but I'm still raising. If he three bets here, it gets interesting. I think I'd probably cap, which I would rarely do with two pair on a board like this. |
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the_hawk
Chelsea FTW!
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 4447
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | This also shows why capping OOP is bad. Now that he caps, I know he really has something. |
A very good point. "Something" meaning something you are well ahead of on the flop, with virtual 100% certainty.
This also shapes the turn decision, surely. To my mind you are in clover except for the remote possibility he has precisely   and I hence tend to think that ramming and jamming this particular turn is the way forward. |
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Willem
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Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2685
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Skrotnisse wrote: | | Call and raise a non diamond river? |
Not a bad idea actually. I might save a bet in case the river comes a diamond. Problem with this line is that villain might check the river if a scary card comes. I prefer to just jam the turn and get my value there.
| the_hawk wrote: | | Willem wrote: | | This also shows why capping OOP is bad. Now that he caps, I know he really has something. |
A very good point. "Something" meaning something you are well ahead of on the flop, with virtual 100% certainty.
This also shapes the turn decision, surely. To my mind you are in clover except for the remote possibility he has precisely and I hence tend to think that ramming and jamming this particular turn is the way forward. |
Yes, this would usually be a scary turn. But villain has an overpair here almost always, meaning I can still safely raise. (And maybe even cap like nside suggests). The fact that he caps preflop actually makes it possible to 3-bet him with a wider range (like T9o), since I can play more accurately after the flop.
Here is what happened next.
Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $8/$16
6 players
Converter
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with
2 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, CO caps, Hero calls.
Flop: (9.5SB, 2 players)
CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.
Turn: (7.75BB, 2 players)
CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls.
River:  (11.75BB, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero ???
Probably the worst card in the deck. Still a valuebet? |
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the_hawk
Chelsea FTW!
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 4447
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | Probably the worst card in the deck. Still a valuebet? |
Now this becomes a simple ToP "55%" problem. Will a clear majority of calls if you bet come from hands you beat?
As far as I can see you're getting calls here from straights, non-nut flushes and perhaps even top set - all of which obviously beat you. Overpairs without a diamond may well call getting 12:1, but I'm not sure this is anywhere near the majority of calls you will get.
To my mind this is a fairly clear check behind. |
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Willem
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Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2685
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| the_hawk wrote: | | To my mind this is a fairly clear check behind. |
I agree. I am now behind to any AA or KK which have a diamond (which half of those hands do), as well as QQ which has a strait and JJ which has a set. I am ahead of AA and KK that don't have a diamond. If you count the combination of hands, I am ahead of 6 hands and behind to 15 hands. So this is not even close to a valuebet and checking behind is the only correct action.
What happened: I checked behind and villain showed QQ. So I lost the hand but played it perfectly, nothing more you can do. |
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