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antneye
Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 63
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 Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: Advanced PLO Concept discussion thread |
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I thought I would start this thread as a place for active readers of the book to discuss concepts and try to flesh out some of the strategies. I am well into the book and thoroughly enjoying it. I personally feel the book will generate a lot of debate and some will disagree with some of the concepts, but I believe it has the potential to revolutionize the way people think about the game.
The first strategy that I'd like to discuss is the Float. I get what Jeff is talking about and agree it can be quite powerful, but what I am struggling with so far is when to employ it. I can see where people may overuse it and start bleeding away chips. So far I have had very mixed results. I guess our main targets are weak players who will give up after firing a C-Bet.......the trouble is that many players are double and triple barreling UI even as low as PLO 25 and PLO50. Now against these guys it is so much fun to passively call down and let them bet your strong but non-nut hands for you, but that is a totally different topic.
So how succesful have you guys been at working the float into your game? How exactly are you picking your target villains? Any stats that can help with this?
One thing I will say is that I am really going focus on playing only one table for a while while I try to cement my reads and ability to think about the game. |
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mchilger
ITH Founder and Poker Author
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 6615
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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I've cut back also on the number of tables I am playing so that I can focus on the hands (playing one or two). One drawback I have right now is that I'm playing at Cake and can't figure out how to to hand histories while playing - anyone help with this?
I think the float is a great concept, but I agree that it should be used only in specific situations. Knowing your opponents is critical.
I've been playing some with Rizen and have some interesting hands. He has been playing PLO for quite some time so I know that he knows what he is doing, whereas I am still in never-never land - not sure exactly how I should play a lot of hands when I don't hit the nuts. The game is so much different depending on whether you are playing a good player or bad player so knowing your opponents is obviously crucial. Need to find some software to help as I've gotten away from software but see if is key in order to multi-table.
Matthew |
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antneye
Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| mchilger wrote: | I've cut back also on the number of tables I am playing so that I can focus on the hands (playing one or two). One drawback I have right now is that I'm playing at Cake and can't figure out how to to hand histories while playing - anyone help with this?
I think the float is a great concept, but I agree that it should be used only in specific situations. Knowing your opponents is critical.
I've been playing some with Rizen and have some interesting hands. He has been playing PLO for quite some time so I know that he knows what he is doing, whereas I am still in never-never land - not sure exactly how I should play a lot of hands when I don't hit the nuts. The game is so much different depending on whether you are playing a good player or bad player so knowing your opponents is obviously crucial. Need to find some software to help as I've gotten away from software but see if is key in order to multi-table.
Matthew |
Holdem Manager has support for Cake Hand Histories in their latest version. It is only in beta release right now but it is expected to go live very shortly. You do not need to wait for the live release since their free 15 day trial is also available in the beta. I use the product (although not for Cake) and can say that it is a great product for tracking your Omaha play. The hud is exceptional (although it is not allowed for Cake use). For Cake you can simply obtain your HH's and evaluate your play against generic opponents since live tracking of villains play is against the terms of play on Cake. HEM Management reached agreement with Cake to allow for inclusion of their site as long as they made the HUD inactive and make the data obtained on villains be aggregated into a single villain.
If you happen to play on other sites you will realize the full power of HEM. I am not affiliated with them in any fashion. I'm simply a big fan of the product having originaly used PTO.
One other element of HEM that I love is the table scanner they are developing. In my opinion table dynamics are crucial to your success at PLO. Their scanner scans the tables at the stakes of your choosing and pulls the data on villains from your HH database. I find it very helpful in choosing the best tables to sit at. It also allows me to know instantly if the fish are sitting to my right or left and I will refuse the seat if my position is not acceptable. I do not know if the scanner works on Cake though. Check out http://www.holdemmanager.net/forum/ for more detailed information. |
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germanfalcon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 83
Location: Germany, Mannheim
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:09 am Post subject: Re: Advanced PLO Concept discussion thread |
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| antneye wrote: | So how succesful have you guys been at working the float into your game? How exactly are you picking your target villains? Any stats that can help with this?
One thing I will say is that I am really going focus on playing only one table for a while while I try to cement my reads and ability to think about the game. |
I have sucessfully implemented the float as an additional weapon in my game. But it shouldnt be overused. For deception I play strong hands as well sometimes like a float or try to bet "weak" with strong hands and check the turn to induce bets.
But all is very read depended and Omaha Manager and HUD stats help a lot.
Playing less tables helps a lot to get the new arsenal of weapons to work correctly. |
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mchilger
ITH Founder and Poker Author
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 6615
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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thanks Ant - will look into Holdem Manager. We are trying to contact them to see if we can add them to our FGO, so if that goes through I definitely will give it a try.
Matthew |
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mr brightside
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 13
Location: Los Angeles area
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| antneye wrote: | | One other element of HEM that I love is the table scanner they are developing. In my opinion table dynamics are crucial to your success at PLO. Their scanner scans the tables at the stakes of your choosing and pulls the data on villains from your HH database. I find it very helpful in choosing the best tables to sit at. It also allows me to know instantly if the fish are sitting to my right or left and I will refuse the seat if my position is not acceptable. I do not know if the scanner works on Cake though. Check out http://www.holdemmanager.net/forum/ for more detailed information. |
I have HEM Omaha but the HEM forums tend to make my brain hurt so I'm unclear on the table scanner.
Does the scanner scan tables you are not sitting at and gets information (like the data mining that was eventually banned on Party Poker) or just takes existing information (previously gathered from playing those players) and displays it for you before you sit down? I play on Stars now.
I have found that keeping the tight low pre flop raise types on your left to be most important and would buy the scanner just for this even if it won't data mine. |
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antneye
Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| mr brightside wrote: | | antneye wrote: | | One other element of HEM that I love is the table scanner they are developing. In my opinion table dynamics are crucial to your success at PLO. Their scanner scans the tables at the stakes of your choosing and pulls the data on villains from your HH database. I find it very helpful in choosing the best tables to sit at. It also allows me to know instantly if the fish are sitting to my right or left and I will refuse the seat if my position is not acceptable. I do not know if the scanner works on Cake though. Check out http://www.holdemmanager.net/forum/ for more detailed information. |
I have HEM Omaha but the HEM forums tend to make my brain hurt so I'm unclear on the table scanner.
Does the scanner scan tables you are not sitting at and gets information (like the data mining that was eventually banned on Party Poker) or just takes existing information (previously gathered from playing those players) and displays it for you before you sit down? I play on Stars now.
I have found that keeping the tight low pre flop raise types on your left to be most important and would buy the scanner just for this even if it won't data mine. |
No mining. It simply scans the tables, determines who the players are, and pulls the stats that you already have in your database. It is very helpful at identifying the fish. If you have no hands in your database on anyone at the table, you would get no data. |
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WWJfergusonD
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: Insistance on betting full pot on flop & turn |
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First time through Part V and here's something I don't understand.
In the "Special Insert" (P. 240) Hwang writes that the PF battles aren't as useful as in holdem because having the initiative post-flop isn't nearly as important as having position.
He then goes on to say that c-betting doesn't work for the reasons people think it works. He says it works because the villain has nothing to call you with. (P. 241)
With all that said, why advocate a pot-sized c-bet in almost all situations (P. 257 in regards to 3-bet PF pots)? If the villain has nothing, why risk a full-sized bet to achieve what a 4/5, 3/4 or 1/2P bet could accomplish? |
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germanfalcon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 83
Location: Germany, Mannheim
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:30 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps I have another book, but in my book on page 257 there is stated "you should tend to bet the full pot on the flop" and also" the c-bet should be tailored to the structure and texture of the flop".
There is no "you must c-bet the full pot if you are the 3-bet pf raiser". Hwang states you should tend to bet full pot, this is close to full pot but not full pot. But dont bet less the pot if you missed and bet full pot if you hit 
The "special insert" makes sense because in PLO there are not such huge favorites as in holdem. Mostly there are 60/40 situations or coinflips. So with raising preflop you cant represent that strong hand that is a huge favorite over the villian and use the cbet because 2/3 of the time the flop was missed and opponent cant continue. |
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WWJfergusonD
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| germanfalcon wrote: | | The "special insert" makes sense because in PLO there are not such huge favorites as in holdem. Mostly there are 60/40 situations or coinflips. So with raising preflop you cant represent that strong hand that is a huge favorite over the villian and use the cbet because 2/3 of the time the flop was missed and opponent cant continue. |
From what I've seen as well, the better players at my level don't fold to 3-bets when they are in position. So I get the fact that hand values are close.
But on P. 241 Hwang says players fold because they missed the flop, not because I'm an aggro stud and they are afraid of me. So why risk a full-sized bet to make them fold?
It fits within an "always bet pot (except for minor exceptions)" strategy. I'm just not sure I see the wisdom in an "always bet pot" strategy. |
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germanfalcon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 83
Location: Germany, Mannheim
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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The key is to 3bet in position to get headsup with the initial raiser. With the positional advantage it mostly gets checked to us and we decide if we bet near pot size depending on flop texture. Also we should have a good idea of our opponents hand ranges and if the flop has helped him.
The key with almost always bet the pot is to keep our opponent guessing if we have it or not. After some of this confrontations where have pocketed some small pots he would play back with marginal holdings like two pair. But he pays a high price to figure out if they are good |
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quadaces9999
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think C bet sizes should be dictated by the way the table plays. IF your at a nitty table were players are not tricky and are playing back then i would say half pot c bet would be good. As also half pot donk bets should be good.
IF your at a table who plays strong then i would say full pot c bets would be a a better play then 50-70% c bet size. Like Jeff said your not always going to be making c bets. Your only going to be making them in the right situations and thats covered in the book. |
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germanfalcon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 83
Location: Germany, Mannheim
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Slothboom has some interesting concepts about bet sizes and how to build, how to size the bets and raises, to have enough ammo for the later streets in his new book. I got it before Hwnags book and put it aside when it got Hwangs book in my hands, because I value Hwangs ideas more than slothbooms. But you cant get enough input and ideas and then develop your own game and playing style.
And last but not least I value to discuss with other readers and the "master" himself here in the forum to exchange ideas and concepts. Exploiding mistakes etc. |
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quadaces9999
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Ive actaully played worse when following Slotbooms advice. I tried some of his concepts and i was just spewing my chips away.
I had to quickly come back to Hwang's book and re read certain sections to re familiarize myself with his style and to stabilize myself. |
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germanfalcon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 83
Location: Germany, Mannheim
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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The new shorthanded Book from Slothboom is a lot better than the first one. There are some ideas in it that could be proof useful. He describes how he made the transisiton from fullring to 6max. And has some Hand Examples with different stack sizes and how they play different.
But as I said I work first through the Hwang then I read Slothboom and then Hwang again. |
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