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mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Warwickshire, UK
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 Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Ace high turn decision |
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I've been thinking about a situation that occurs fairly often. I've seen two very good players play these kind of spots differently . This is not one of my hands so I've been unable to convert it.
Limit 6max
Villain in BB is a generic TAG (24/17/2)
Hero in CO with Ac9c
PRE FLOP
2 folds, Hero raises, BTN folds, SB folds, BB calls
FLOP (2 players)
4s 6c 2s
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls
TURN (2 players)
8h
BB bets, Hero?
Peel or fold? Is this just a style and image thing? |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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call down with good aces and fold bad ones?
good aces A3, A5, A7, AJ-AK
my thinking is that villain does seem to aggressive and some TAGs check/raise draws less on low, drawy boards because they are so likely to get called down. |
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Willem
2K Club
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2685
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| I would probably peel the turn with any Ax, maybe call the river with AK. The turn peel is to prevent me from folding too many hands on the turn, and to have a decent chance to win the showdown in case villain gives up on the river. |
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mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Warwickshire, UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: | | I would probably peel the turn with any Ax, maybe call the river with AK. The turn peel is to prevent me from folding too many hands on the turn, and to have a decent chance to win the showdown in case villain gives up on the river. |
Would AK not be the same as AQ, AJ, and possibly AT here? |
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Willem
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Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2685
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| mconstab wrote: | | Willem wrote: | | I would probably peel the turn with any Ax, maybe call the river with AK. The turn peel is to prevent me from folding too many hands on the turn, and to have a decent chance to win the showdown in case villain gives up on the river. |
Would AK not be the same as AQ, AJ, and possibly AT here? |
Yes, they are the same here. But the determining factor is not the actual strength of you hand (as long as it beats any bluff), but more the frequency with which you call the river. Any Ax can catch a bluff on the river, but calling with all of them will result in a calling frequency which is too high. |
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mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Warwickshire, UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Skrotnisse wrote: | call down with good aces and fold bad ones?
good aces A3, A5, A7, AJ-AK
my thinking is that villain does seem to aggressive and some TAGs check/raise draws less on low, drawy boards because they are so likely to get called down. |
I like the thinking here, only calling the turn with your strongest aces and ones that have picked up a draw.
I personally would peel this turn with any Ax but I've just watched a KPR16 vid over at Cardrunners and he actually folded this turn. He based his decision on picking up a draw on the turn. I'm convinced players like Oink would peel this turn in a blink of an eye stating that all draws missed so there's a good chance were still ahead. Oink I assume has a laggier image than KPR though so maybe opponents play back at him more.
KPRs reasoning sounds pretty good here and still adds enough balance to the times when were going to be folding K, Q, and J high hands on the turn. |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| mconstab wrote: | | I'm convinced players like Oink would peel this turn in a blink of an eye stating that all draws missed so there's a good chance were still ahead. |
Well, all the draws hasnīt missed. 87 made a pair, 75 made a straight, 53 had a straight, and A3 and A5 would probably just call flop. |
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mconstab
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Warwickshire, UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Skrotnisse wrote: | | mconstab wrote: | | I'm convinced players like Oink would peel this turn in a blink of an eye stating that all draws missed so there's a good chance were still ahead. |
Well, all the draws hasnīt missed. 87 made a pair, 75 made a straight, 53 had a straight, and A3 and A5 would probably just call flop. |
Lol your right, bad example.
Okay change the 8h to the Th on the turn. Does this affect the turn decision? |
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Skrotnisse
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 530
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| mconstab wrote: |
Okay change the 8h to the Th on the turn. Does this affect the turn decision? |
Just how many A high hands you call down with I guess. |
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kpr16
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 596
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Did I really fold a turn like this in a video?
I like a peel here for sure, and I agree with Willem, though it seems like we may need more than just AK on the river (at least if most draws whiff). |
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kpr16
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 596
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| Oh you know what, my original comment in a video might be right. There's little difference between the showdown value of A9 and A5 and A7 here, but the latter hands have stronger re-draws and I would think we prefer those hands on the turn. A8 makes a pair on the turn, so now A9 is our worst Ax hand we should be peeling with here... and it seems pretty damn close. I think a fold is fine. |
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