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AA facing min raise on turn

 
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Radford
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Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2755
Location: Sheffield, England

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject: AA facing min raise on turn Reply with quote

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: ITH Forums)

MP1 ($14.75)
MP2 ($20.60)
CO ($21.10)
Button ($25.55)
Rad ($38.80)
BB ($22.50)
UTG ($27.50)
UTG+1 ($46.65)

Preflop: Rad is SB with Ace of Spades, Ace of Clubs.
4 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Rad raises to $1, 1 fold, CO calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.35) 10 of Hearts, 6 of Hearts, 4 of Diamonds (2 players)
Rad bets $2, CO calls $2.

Turn: ($6.35) 4 of Spades (2 players)
Rad bets $5, CO raises to $10, What now??????

First of all, is my raise pf too small? This is how much i would have raised in a tourney. But are cash games different? I was thinking maybe a 4xbb raise would be ok at the higher limits. But since the BB is only 25 cents, won't everyone just call anyway?

I made a bigish bet on the turn and he min raises me. What could he possibly have to min raise me? A4? 1010/66? I doubt 1010 because i would expect a raise being from the CO. But limping is still possible, obviously.
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superwomble



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 65
Location: Dover, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any stats/reads on the CO player?

The pre-flop raise looks good to me BTW.
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Radford
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Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2755
Location: Sheffield, England

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I probably did have stats on this player, but i had my PT database erased. No reads. Probably about 10 minutes into my session. Villian sat down about 7 hands ago.

I just wondered if at these limits, i should make by raises bigger.
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doubleup



Joined: 21 Mar 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Redding, California

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pre-flop looks good. 4xBB + 1 limper is what my preflop raises consist of most the time. Flop looks good. Turn lead is good.

As far as villain's play, I don't think TT or 66 is possible because his raise kinda says he has a good, but vulnerable hand. 66 is possible pf, but I don't see villain raising the turn. I don't think villain would raise with a boat, but at these limits you never know. Often when I see re-raises such as this they have the goods. I could see A4s in villains play here. He limped pf and only called your raise. 4h5h could be possible as well given how he played the flop. I think villain is holding a 4 here most the time or possibly a PP. I don't think villain has a boat or any type of draw here.
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Damo_1
PauliF Fan Club


Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 1063
Location: Playing sets fast

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: AA facing min raise on turn Reply with quote

Radford wrote:
First of all, is my raise pf too small? This is how much i would have raised in a tourney. But are cash games different? I was thinking maybe a 4xbb raise would be ok at the higher limits. But since the BB is only 25 cents, won't everyone just call anyway?


If there are players at your table that'll call a bigger PFR why would you not want to raise more with your premium hands? Also, when out of position I try to compensate by bumping up the raise size a little. Here I'd make it $1.50 or so.

As played it certainly looks like a fishy trips/full house line to me. I don't think a fold here the first time this opponent does this can be too bad but obviously some sort of read will help your decision greatly.
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MXRider
Slim Shady


Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 4985
Location: Have it your way!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: AA facing min raise on turn Reply with quote

Radford wrote:

First of all, is my raise pf too small?


General theory is to raise 4x first in and add 1 bb for each limper, when in position. OOP I'm raising this up to $1.50 in this particular spot.
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emmapeel
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2533
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit awkward this.

TT or even 66 might raise pre-flop so I think a set is less likely here. Maybe villain has a flush draw with a 4 in it though. 5 of Hearts,4 of Hearts seems like a possibility here or even a suited Ace might have called pre-flop as it was not much to do so.

Since we bet big on the turn and got re-raised anyway I think we are beat here. I think I'm going to call anyway though as:

1/ We have two outs to win. This is not enough but it is significant. (Unless we are against quads.)

2/ We can win in other ways. Villain may check down a weaker hand; again rarely but it will add up.

3/ I hate folding to mini-bets and also villain might be a weak player who is value-betting KTo here.

I think my plan is to fold to a push on the river though.

EP
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emmapeel
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2533
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I would raise bigger pre-flop maybe to 5-6BB. 7BB makes the hand easy to play and is a good play against fishy types who will call loosely for various sized bets. 4BB is prolly ok too but makes the hand more difficult to play as more hands can call correctly.

I think that bets are usually sized bigger in cash games due to the bigger implied odds. If you are drawing then you can usually win a lot more after you hit as the stacks are bigger. This is the same as the start of a tournament. I think there are other differences too.

EP
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poker_Elmo
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Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 2750
Location: PA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your PFR is fine. It is the exact raise I would make (3x big blind plus an extra big blind for each limper), however, so I might be biased.

I would probably push here, at least at 1/2 NL. The reason - you are looking for a story about the person's hand that makes sense. Their story by raising the turn is trying to tell you that they have at least trip 4s. Well, what hand is consistent with trip 4s, 44, TT, 66, T4, or 64? Given the PFR, T4, and 64 are unlikey. What hands are consistent with just calling a pre-flop bet? Well, with a set, a large percentage of players would want to raise the flop, given the very dangerous board (both flush and straight draws possible). That makes TT, 66, and 44 less likely. That leaves a hand with a lone 4 or something else (flush draw, AT or JJ perhaps).

I am pushing. Sometimes you lose here when someone just called with an A4 or with a set, but I think your opponents range here probably includes a lot of flush draws and other hands, so I think you are ahead of your opponents range.
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