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jfletcher
Will work for food
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 3162
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 Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: a time to lay down KK preflop? |
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Live NL $2-3 blinds. I have been losing quietly for most of the night. I have a tight image so I've taken down a lot of pots preflop, even with smaller than standard raises. I just decided to use my image to bluff at a pot, and I ran into KK and got caught, sheepishly turning over Q high and losing my final $120. The chip runner is off to get me another $200 when the following hand comes up.
Villain is a pretty standard live player. He doesn't seem to be terrible, or very good. He's normal loose and passive. Haven't seen him do anything wild.
Villain in EP raises to $10, I raise to $25 with my KK. Folded back to villain, who says "I have to go all in." He's got me covered, so it's another $175 for me to call.
He's got to have aces, right? |
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poker_Elmo
2K Club
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 2740
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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I would be afraid of aces, but I am not folding KK 1-1 ever for 70 big blinds pre-flop in a cash game.
The conditions that could make me consider:
Super-nitty-nit is pushing PF. (Not what you describe)
I have a super-nitty-nit image. (Given you just got caught bluffing - not what you describe.)
He should have AK, QQ, or even KK or something else often enough to make this worth calling - especially given there is now $225 in the pot and you have to call $175. |
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Llanlad
Whinge-Free
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 3490
Location: Educating LFC fans
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Ive never folded KK preflop in my life and im not sure i ever will ..
I allmost did it the other night , when one of the most notorious nitty types ever on ipoker limped UTG and i raised with KK, got one caller and UTG then 3Bet .
Now this guy has stats like 6/3 on the FR tables and there is utterly no chance IMO that he would do this with anyhting but AA ...
But i still could not fold KK .. and flat called and 3 of us saw a flop.
The flop was 9 high and everyone checked the flop .. he did a weakish bet on the blank turn and i just called, other folded .
River was a J and he checked .. if i was not playing so many tables i would probably have bet the river ..
I was utterly amazed to see QQ ...
This just kinda confirms ... its not allways AA . |
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toronexti
53o
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 4171
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Especially live he doesn't have to have AA, I'm assuming he did though. |
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jfletcher
Will work for food
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 3162
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| toronexti wrote: | | Especially live he doesn't have to have AA, I'm assuming he did though. |
Of course he did have aces, and I was having some second-thoughts about my call as I headed home. I think mostly it's correct, but it still stings, especially at the end of an already bad night. |
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jfletcher
Will work for food
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 3162
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Of course over at 2+2 most people say I should have folded, but I'll bet you a buck that if I reposted it as "what do you think of my fold?" they'd all say I should have called.
They're quite the contrarians over there IMO. |
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cowboyinexile
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 369
Location: South Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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From your description, I'm guessing the guy is decent. He just saw you lose your stack on a bluff and now you are leading into him. He probably has you on a wide range of hands and between thinking you could call into his rockets pre-flop versus you getting crazy against him post flop if he doesn't improve, well if I'm him, I'm probably shoving here. Depending on what I think your state of mind is here, if you fold, this is a situation where I might show my hand.
With your hand though, once he shoves, if he's decent, but not spectacular, AA is a hand he could have. His comments make me think he has something big-AK, face card pp, but I think he wants the pot to end here. He could be scared of a difficult decision with aces, but its just as likely he holds jacks and thinks you are making a move on him with something like KQ. I think this is a situation where you can use your opponents image of you against him, and if he has rockets, well, that happens.
The situations where you can lay down KK preflop are few and far between-this isn't one of them. If you lose, so be it. It stings that it happened in this situation, but thats life. |
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mclelands
1K Club
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 1039
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I honestly thought this was a level when I first read it. The times when I'll fold KK pf are extremely rare and at a live NL200 game with 100bb stacks it isn't one of them. I really think you're being too results oriented here. I imagine if you had gotten in vs AK or QQ or even AA and sucked out, that this post would have been titled "KK: standard call pf?" Just stick it in unless you have an awesome read on the player. I would have been more worried if he made it something like 55 after you 3 bet. As played I can't fold here. |
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