A beginner's frustration after more than 200 hours of play

[Sarah555]

Hi, my name is Sarah. I have read Matthew Hilger's book for internet hold'em.
Now, after a month of play (limit 0.50/1.00) I'm getting frustrated - to say the least.
I use the scheme of the book for starting hands and bet and call strictly according to pot odds (I teach math, so this is not very difficult for me).
Unfortunately I am beaten time and again by people who make terrible mistakes (like betting heads up when they have eight outs, or calling in early position with ridiculous hands) , but make their draws against my made hands. I have developed an intense dislike of flushes! It is driving me slightly crazy. Instead of winning on average one dollar an hour, I have lost almost two hundred dollars!
I am very confident that I make not many terrible mistakes. Perhaps I have became slightly more passive after innumerable unlikely losses. But what I would like to know is: does any one share this beginner's experience with me?
I know that the laws of probability should turn the tide some day, but I am by now so disheartened, that I'm thinking of giving up the game.
Can somebody lift my spirits?

[PauliF]

how many hands have you played?

you may be playing well enough to be a long term winner but simply be suffering from what we call a downswing... statistical standard deviation on your earn rate... swing
although 200 big bets is a big downswing so chances are you have some leaks in your game... dont be disheartened by this... thats what this game is all about

do you have poker tracker... its a piece of software that tracks your play and gives lots of stats as well as being able to replay hands and study opponents away from the table...

if you have got it let let us some of your stats and if you dont then consider investing in it... there is lots of useful info about it in the the software section


oh and welcome to the forum

[Misunderstud]

Hi, Sarah

Welcome to the forum.

You sound very much like me. I was attracted to this game not because I'm a gambler but because it appears to be a pastime in which it is possible, if not inevitable, to make money by following clear mathematical principles. Well, that was a couple of years ago and, although I'm still hanging in there and have made a bit of profit, it's hardly been the cash cow I'd originally envisaged.

If you are completely new to the game, as I was, then .5/1 is probably too high a limit for you to begin. There is rather more to the game than simply following the hand charts and calling with the correct odds (although these are indeed essential areas for the beginner to master). You have perhaps played only around 1,000 hands, which is far too small a sample from which to draw conclusions, but, as Paul says, although a 200BB downswing is certainly possible, chances are that at least part of it is due to leaks.

If you are serious about the game then you will find a lot of help here. Just reading through the posts in the Limit section will teach you a great deal, and getting Poker Tracker and posting your own hands for comment will teach you a great deal more.

If you combine your obvious intelligence with patience and application there is no reason you should not be a long-term winner. In time you will welcome those idiots to your table, because those are the players from whom you will make money.

You might just have to scale back your expectations in the meantime.

Let's hope this isn't the last we see of you.

[Sarah555]

Thanks for your reply.
I have played on internet at two tables at the same time (one table is too slow for me...) for more than 100 hours, so that makes roughly 8000 hands!
After the first 100 hours I had a profit of more than $100. And then the misery began.
I have no tracker, but when my fortunes changed I started to keep notes and stats of the hands I play.
For instance, over the past ten days I have lost 75% of the time where I had the best hand on the flop, against 1, 2 or 3 opponents. I have lost 65% of my starting hands AK, AQ, QQ and JJ taken together. I won only 60% of my trips. I was 27 times beaten by a flush on the river (not against a lot of opponents preflop, but against one of two). I make them pay for those draws, but not I, but they are richly rewarded... My own flush draws were only 3 times successful..., to be beaten twice: once by a higer flush and once by a full house.
Countless times I had the winning hand up to the river, only to be beaten there.
I assure you, in the beginning I only laughed about so much bad luck, but after a while laughter gave way to less pleasurable emotions...
Oh, I have Turbo Hold'em van Wilsons and I have practiced a lot with it. You can challenge "Mike", and I certainly did not badly...!
One error I did correct was calling too often what a considered to be a bluff - and was not. Of course, I make more mistakes, how could I not, but I am very sure that I at least play in accordance with the pot odds.
Well, I hope I gave you some answers that give you a better idea of my "troubles"...

[PauliF]

get poker tracker

[PauliF]

and with that many hands at 0.5/1 you should have made way more than $200 in bonuses
where are you playing?

[Sarah555]

Ah, and you too, thanks for your reaction, stud.
It is not the money. It is not much to pay for a hobby. But losing in itself is another matter. I hate that.
I will certainly read the posts on this forum.

[Sarah555]

I am not counting the bonuses!
I started with $200 and my roll is now $180.
And of course there is much more to the game than just counting odds.
But I am pretty sure that a tight player (as a beginner I should be) MUST have a bad run of cards to lose so much. Don't take me for a fool! It is the majority of my opponents that make outrageous calls. I lost countless times where I had a winning hand to begin with and many outs to a monster. And I found myself calling bets, or even reraising them, that were just too improbable to be true. How likely is it that you loose six times in a row against a single opponent, who starts betting his flush or gutshot draw and gets it? I am not exaggerating here.
But let us leave it at this. Perhaps I was only venting my frustration. Thanks four your reactions.

[nsidestrate]

One of the reasons people advise that you purchase pokertracker is that if you told us your statistics we might be able to help you identify your mistakes. It is very unlikely that your losses are primarily a result of putting your money in when you have a mathematical advantage and the other players catch their cards. I'm quite certain that this happens to you, as it does to us all, but it probably happens with exactly the frequency you would expect. In fact, if you are a good player, you will lose to drawing hands more often than you will win with drawing hands. This is because you will be playing fewer drawing hands and more made hands as a proportion of your hands that other players you face. Therefore, your problem is more likely to be one of the following:

1) You continue to pay large bets on the turn and river when your opponents have made it clear that you no longer have the best hand.
2) You are not aggressive enough when you have the best hand, allowing your opponents to chase their longshots too cheaply.
3) You give up too easily when you fear that the other player has always hit their miracle card.

You can see that #1 & #3 are opposites. Everyone does both, but most people tend to make one of those two mistakes far more often than the other. PokerTracker can help you determine which one. Based on your description, it sounds like you are a #1 person, but it is hard to say.

Coming to a poker forum to improve your game is an excellent start to improving your play. Best of luck.

[Sarah555]

Yes, #1 does apply to me. I have found myself doing that and I am trying to suppress that terrible urge. I am certainly not passive when I have the best hand, so we can dismiss #2. The third point is interesting. I find that I now give up more easily than in the beginning when a player is attacking me.. A certain lack of confidence has set in....
I'll purchase poker tracker. Thanks for the insights!

[Sarah555]

Funny, the first game I played today: trips A on the flop against a lone opponent who cold called a preflop raise met K3s.... and gets his flush. It is driving me crazy. It is sooooo unlikely what is happening to me in the past two weeks, over and over again.... But, I understand, it is hard to believe so much bad luck. And so you will continue to hold me for a silly girl...... I will bear my fate and cry in my bed.

[taz115]

Some good responses in this thread... I'd just like to point out that 8k hands is not a lot and winnig players certainly lose over stretches that long. 200 BBs does sound like a lot and I do encourage you to post some of your hands at ITH for feedback.

It;s free and there are many winning players here that have started out in the exact same spot as you.

Welcome.

taz115

[Sarah555]

Thanks, taz.

Of course, I know I must be making mistakes. Mistakes that make me miss out on big bets. But before I come to the niceties of tactics and strategy, I really first need some help from the board. The one thing I know for certain is that I keep losing hands, again and again and again, against HUGE odds. I may be losing more bets than necessary by not dropping my hand quickly enough . However, during the first two weeks things went "according to probabilities" and I made more than my one dollar an hour. Since then ..... well, it is simply beyond belief. And I know how to calculate probabilites! I have come to dread my premium hands, almost knowing beforehand that they will cost me. And sometimes I simply keep calling, because I refuse to believe that this is happening to me. I have hardly seen a flop that came even close to improving my hand. My premium pocket pairs are beaten, one after the other. And even alone from the small blind against the big blind I find myself with QQ against KK or something like that. My monster hands are beaten by four of a suit on the board. It just doesn't stop. Losing a hundred times or more to somebody who pays three bets cold to see the fllop with 75o (to give only one example), well, it is just too much for me. I'll not be playing for a week or so. I am no longer amused.

[taz115]

It is often the best thing you can do if the beats are getting to you. If you do continue with poker in the future the bad streaks will last much longer than a week at a time. Thats just the ways things go.

A good book for you to check out might be The Poker Mindset by Ian Taylor and Matthew Hilger. It goes over the relaities of poker... and losing streaks is one of them. I really think this is good book for a begginer with your types of questions to read.

taz115

[Sarah555]

This was the last hand I played:

I am in the small blind with ATo. The player to my right call first in and the big blind checks. The flop comes A64. I bet, the big blind folds, the other player calls. The turn is 8. I bet again, the player calls. The river is 9. I bet again and the player raises. I probably shouldn't have called him, but anyhow: he shows 94s... Now, these things happen, but they definitely shouldn't happen practically all the time.