88 in CO, multiway

[Damien]

88 is unstoppable!!!!

Seriously, do I just dump this on the flop with so many players?

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (10.5SB, 5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7.75BB, 5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11.75BB, 4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Results:
Final pot: 13.75BB

[Stew21]

If any one of the others play A-rag (at least suited) then yes, your 88 is dead in the water.
I think the same could be said for J-T or T-9.

I'm still learning as well (as you've seen from some of my other posts ) so I'm sure ther are better people than me to really answer this.

[Ohjay]

This is an easy fold on the flop.
You only have 1 clean out if we presume you are behind already. The 8 of spades could likely give someone a flush, and people love playing aces(especially at the lower limits) so I think it's pretty safe to say you're behind already. And even if you'd get that miracle 8 of clubs, there's a chance a spade comes and gives someone a flush anyway, so the odds just aren't there to play this beyond the flop. Let it go...

There is another "interesting" bit in this hand as well, and that is pre-flop. I'm not sure I would call this preflop. If UTG is at least reasonable he probably has a big ace or a bigger PP than you, and you have 2 cold-callers and if they are reasonable as well they'll have hands which means trouble for you. Thinking about it, even with no reads I would fold 88 here.
With some good reads on 2 or 3 of the opponents I might lean towards calling if the read was favourable for a hand like this

[the_hawk]

I think ohjay has it. If the flop were rainbow i think you can peel one for the 2 outer getting 10:1 immediate and likely 14:1 barring a c/r. As it is i can dump this. A fold pre would be fine as well.

[the_hawk]

Looking at the hand again, the PFRer has checked the flop, which at this limit means there is quite likely some monkeying around to be expected behind you on the flop, As such i lean even more towards a fold.

[Damien]

Thanks guys, that all makes perfect sense.

[Misunderstud]

Well, I may be mad, and Hawk will probably tell me why, but for me this is a fold or reraise preflop. If I reraise (i.e. if UTG is known to raise light from that seat) I'm betting/raising 1 bettor (as played) on the flop and reassessing from there.

[Damien]

If it helps any, UTG is a pretty standard TAG: 16 / 11 / 2.2

I'm a little surprised that most of you are going with a preflop fold. It seems to me that given the amount of callers, it may be worth it just to try to hit a set on the flop. Is the fold a better option simply because of the likelyhood that somebody else has a higher pocket pair?

If you prefer a pre-flop fold here, which pocket pair would you call (or re-raise?) with? Would 99 be a different story?

[Misunderstud]

If it's worth 2 to hit a set on the flop, then it's worth 3.

With middle pairs you have to look at your hand, the number of callers, the players you're against and where the raise has come from. A 16/11 TAG UTG raiser will likely have a premium hand and with just 3 in the pot it's questionable whether you're getting enough value to play for a set with 88. And, of course, 88 is rarely going to win at SD UI, and will often be outdrawn. A better hand, worse players or more callers and you might lean towards a raise, but It really does depend on the conditions. I've raised 99 and folded TT in similar spots.

If in doubt, fold. If you never cold called anything you wouldn't be making a big mistake.

[omega man]

i believe ed miller and matthews book suggests calling when there are 3 people in the pot.
i call with any pair in late position pre flop but on the flop here i fold.

[Misunderstud]

[Willem]

I would also call this preflop. I don't like to pay 3 bets (when I also see the flop for 2 bets) to get in a 4-handed pot where I am folding the flop a fair amount of the time. (Like here) You might consider 3-betting if you have a chance to knock out some opponents but that's never happening here.

[Misunderstud]

I dunno, maybe it's just a style thing, but I'm really not comfortable cold calling pocket pairs. (I'm not particularly comfortable cold calling anything, come to that, though on the odd occasions I do so it's usually with suited connectors.) It seems to me that with a medium pair in a multiway pot you're either playing for set value or you're not, since it's unlikely to end up being the best hand UI. And, if you are, you might just as well raise - if you're going to win a pot, make it a biggun. 88 and 3 in is pretty borderline, however, so I wouldn't argue all that strongly for or against any of the three alternatives (though personally I'd fold it in this example).

[the_hawk]

[shallam]

Preflop.

The preflop call is marginal, I prefer folding. To attempt to work this out I like to do a little math. The odds of flopping a set or better are 7.5 to 1. So the question is will you win a pot big enough to justify all your misses. For math purposes I like to use 10 rather than 7.5 because it is a round number and should help to avoid exaggarating the strength of my hand. Remember some of the time you hit a set you will be outdrawn by a flush or a straight.

You need to cold call 2 SB, so by my math you need to expect to win at least 20sb when you win (remember you want a 10 to 1 ratio). There are 6 sb so far three players call two bets. Let's assume one other players call and there are no raises. That makes it 8 sb excluding yours.

Let's assume you flop a set and get one raise on the flop but only one layer of betting on the turn and river. On each round 50% of the players fold. On the flop 2 players fold, two call the raise. We now have 12 sb excluding your bets.

On the turn, one player folds one calls for one BB (2sb) giving us a total of 14 sb. On the river let's assume our lone player calls adding 2 sb for a total of 16sb. You need 20 but get only 16. I don't think the math works in your favor.

I realize that the one can question the assumptions at each round. If you cap the betting on the turn with three players you have enough value just based on one round. I purposefully use normal to slightly conservative scenarios. If the table play includes utter reckless post flop play you can adjust accordingly.


In general I like to play mid to small pocket pairs 99 on down for one bet PF. If I call and there is raise I can live with it, but I don't like calling two bets cold.

I prefer folding preflop.

You call. OK, so heading into the flop and lots of opps I'm looking to flop a set or better. If I don't I'm gonna need a really good reason to continue as 88 stinks as a drawing hand. No set, no bet, with only rare exceptions.



The Flop


I really don't like your call here at all. You were looking for a set and didn't get it. To call you really need a good reason, perhaps all undercards, or just one overcard that looks safe (e.g., a 9 ?), or maybe some type of straight draw. Here you have the opposite, both the A and the T are likely to have hit at least one opp. You might be up against a higher pocket pair. It's very likely that are beat, in facts it's likely you are beat by more than one person. You have no real draw except to a set. You are very unlikely to improve with only 2 outs to a set you are 23 to 1, you don't have nearly those odds EVEN if you throw in generous implied odds. There is also a flush draw, your 8s out might be no good. Are we really wanting to draw to one clean out ?

Finally, there is also the possibility of a raise behind you. GROSS!


Fold !


The Turn.

See above.


The River

Better late than never. You might consider calling one bet if there nobody behind you. But with a bet and a call, you know for sure the second player can't be bluffing.

You need a better hand to overcall than just call. A call is probably a fold, an overcall is screaming raging fold.


Summary.

I like your river fold. I think you should have folded on each of the other three rounds. Loose passive poker is a good way to lose money.