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| How would you rate Winning Low Limit Holdem? |
| 1 - Bad Beat |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 2 |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| 3 |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| 4 |
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14% |
[ 4 ] |
| 5 - Split Pot |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| 6 |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| 7 |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| 8 |
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25% |
[ 7 ] |
| 9 |
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18% |
[ 5 ] |
| 10 - The Nuts |
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11% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 27 |
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| Author |
Message |
mchilger
ITH Founder and Poker Author
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 5771
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: Winning Low-Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones |
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Winning Low-Limit Hold'em is one of the best-selling Hold'em books of all-time. It is a basic straightforward approach to getting started in Hold'em. If you are a true beginner, I would recommend reading this book before my book. Once you read this book you will be ready for my book which will go into a lot more detail and will give lots of hand examples to help with the concepts.
I personally believe that my book will overwhelm many players who are absolutely new to Hold'em (some customers disagree so I won't argue with them). I'm sure others will throw in their opinion in this thread. But if you are new, Winning Low-Limit is a good poker book to get you started without overwhelming you with too much info.
As an aside, I never read Winning Low-Limit until I was pretty much through writing my book. I appreciated the book from an author's standpoint on how he presents a simple straightforward approach to learning the basics of the game.
You can purchase Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones in our store.
Matthew
Last edited by mchilger on Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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NormanTD
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Probably one of the best absolute beginners books out there.
Since it's pretty tight-passive in its philosophy, it will probably keep the beginner from blowing his bankroll all at once. ITH and SSHE will teach you better strategic aggression. |
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Stark
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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It is what I started with, as well, and is fundamentally solid. As it was prior to me knowing about Matthew's book, it was my recommendation for all beginners for a while. Probably still is.
If you want to learn while avoiding large swings, I would start here. |
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Ixiterra
1K Club
Joined: 12 Mar 2004
Posts: 1422
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| This book was all right, but it was a little too basic for my tastes. I would definitely recommend ITH before this one, even for live play. |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22108
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew is unfailingly generous in his comments on this book. I personally think it is aimed at much the same audience as Matthew's book and it simply does a much worse job of helping those newer players. The are some things it calls for that I believe are too weak-tight post-flop and it is on the whole much more poorly written in my opinion. |
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Stark
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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I still think it helps those most who cannot afford (literally) to take many chances and want the very basics. You are not going to make buckets of money, but you certainly will not lose much and can become a decent player before moving to more intermediate strategies which are a bit harder to comprehend.
The worst thing, in my opinion, is that it may ingrain some bad weak-tight habits in you, but, again, those can, hopefully, be shed when you move on to a couple of other books suggested here. (Matthew's included, which should go without saying  ) |
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SteveGriff
53o
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 3374
Location: Goodnight Cardiff, Carmarthen, Austin, Texas wherever you are!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Winning Low Limit Holdem was the first book I read and look at me now - a marginal winner 
Steve Griff |
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Icall
53o
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 3651
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| nsidestrate wrote: | | Matthew is unfailingly generous in his comments on this book. I personally think it is aimed at much the same audience as Matthew's book and it simply does a much worse job of helping those newer players. The are some things it calls for that I believe are too weak-tight post-flop and it is on the whole much more poorly written in my opinion. |
I don't know about the poorly written part. Say what you will about Jones being a little weak tight here and there but the book is an absolute breeze to read through and you pretty much know exactly what he's talking about after one quick go through.
I think this IS the best book for a beginner because its just so easy to read and understand. The book flows.
Is ITH more strategically sound and in depth? Of course it is, its also a MUCH tougher read IMO and I can see a lot of beginners struggling through it and the difficult quizes with some very complex and counter intuitive answers (I failed most of the later quizes miserably and I was by no means a beginner when I read ITH) and just saying "screw it". I can see it utterly confusing a true beginner.
ITH challenges the reader and makes you stop and think a lot, at least it did for me. It doesn't flow. WLLHE is not like that at all. I read WLLHE in about 2 days of bus rides and lunch breaks at work and I hardly had to stop and think at all. It just made sense to me, it was simple and easy to apply. I signed up with party shortly thereafter and had no trouble cleaning up with a basic WLLHE strategy. I never had that initial rough patch of losing play.
To sum up, ITH is a better book. BUT if you're really talking about a guy with NO playing experience then WLLHE is by far the easier read and will better put a total novice on his way to playing and thinking like a winner. I love the style that WLLHE is written in. The format of the book is better than any other instructional poker book I've ever read. |
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jeffnc
Mason's Favorite
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 7222
Location: NC, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Winning Low-Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones |
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| mchilger wrote: | | Winning Low-Limit is a good poker book to get you started without overwhelming you with too much info.... Once you read this book you will be ready for my book which will go into a lot more detail and will give lots of hand examples to help with the concepts. |
That's probably the most accurate review of the book. Even I was a bit thrown off by the early math in Matthew's book. Not because it isn't necessary or understandable, but just because I didn't expect it so early in the book. You've got to be willing to roll up your sleeves and not blitz through the chapter, like you can blitz through the chapters in WLLH. If you want a gentler introduction to loosen up so to speak, then start with WLLH. If you want to go ahead and get serious, go right to ITH. |
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Voter
1K Club
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: King of Quality Posts
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Best low limit book there is. I read WLLH, made initial $50 deposits at Party and Stars, and never deposited again. Very easy to read, and teaches the concepts without going too far into details. Only poker book I've ever finished. BUT...
...Google up an outs/pot odds chart before you start reading it. Jones refers to having/not having the odds to call, but he never really explained how pot odds worked. If you figure out pot odds in andvance, WLLH is an excellent book. If you already have ITH, read the odds chapter - it's the best discussion of pot odds I've seen. |
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cybrarian
Retired Moderator
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 11116
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Stark wrote: | | I still think it helps those most who cannot afford (literally) to take many chances |
I don't understand what this means? Do you mean players who don't have the bankroll?
Or you mean it helps beginners who can't afford (literally or otherwise) to make too many mistakes early on? |
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Stark
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| cybrarian wrote: | | Stark wrote: | | I still think it helps those most who cannot afford (literally) to take many chances |
I don't understand what this means? Do you mean players who don't have the bankroll?
Or you mean it helps beginners who can't afford (literally or otherwise) to make too many mistakes early on? |
Sorry if I was unclear. I think the book plays it safe in that the advice is very low risk, obviously. I also think it helps guard new players against losing a considerable amount before they understand the nature of big swings. You will not, however, get the value bets out of this book so you will not maximize profits on your good hands.
I guess what I am saying is that, in my opinion, the play style helps reduce standard deviation and insulates the player, somewhat, from the frustrations of large bankroll fluctuations.
ANy better?  |
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SlfMade
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 567
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 2:39 pm Post subject: Comparison of WLLH with ITH |
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WLLH and ITH are both introductory limit hold'em books. The primary difference is that WLLH is a much lighter, easier, shorter, and less challenging read than ITH. Many people just aren't committed enough to poker to get through ITH. For these, I recommend WLLH.
Actually, I recommend WLLH in addition to ITH even for those who are committed. I took an unusual route: I read ITH first, and WLLH second. I'd just started my second reading of ITH when I decided to read WLLH next instead. Perhaps I was intimidated by all the work of a second reading of ITH: I'd decided to ask, on these forums, about all the things I didn't understand on my first reading, and that would take quite a bit of time. Reading WLLH, on the other hand, I can't say there was anything I had to ask about. I will get to that second reading of ITH eventually, though.
Each has coverage in some areas the other doesn't. For example WLLH has a short but useful section on playing in public cardrooms. And ITH has better commentary on playing online and playing poker for a living.
I think WLLH's primary weaknesses are:
1) It doesn't have an outs/odds chart. I can't imagine playing online poker without an outs/odds chart next to me. I typed ITH's one into Excel, expanding it with a few additions of my own.
2) It doesn't have a starting hand chart. It does list recommended starting hands at the end of various sections about each position. But it doesn't organize them into a chart (I keep a blown-up copy of ITH's charts next to me when I play). Even if WLLH did put its recommendations into chart form, it wouldn't be as sophisticated as ITH's.
I can't imagine playing limit poker online without those two things next to me.
WLLH's starting hand requirements seem to be looser than ITH's. I'm guessing this is because WLLH assumes a low-limit game and ITH assumes a tighter, higher-limit game.
WLLH does cover at least one important concept that I don't believe ITH covered: raising for value on a draw. I believe Matthew eliminated odds with two cards to come from ITH after the first printing, and that those are necessary to determine when you can raise for value on a draw.
I do think reading WLLH after ITH added some value for me. Lee Jones explains some things differently, has different terms in the glossary, etc.
For many people I'd recommend they read WLLH and ITH in that order, and in quick succession so that you get Matthew's starting hand chart and outs chart soon.
Both of them cover only limit hold'em ring games, however. The typical person reading a first poker book these days will also want coverage of no limit, and single- and multitable tournaments. I'm reading my third intro poker book now, Getting Started in Hold'em, by Ed Miller, which does cover those areas. |
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fep
53o
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 3107
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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SlfMade said:
Years ago I got the 1st edition of WLLH and it had obvious errors in the starting hand charts, such as AKo in middle position fold if the pot is raised, KQs & AQo were not listed as playable in middle position etc. (This was corrected in the 2nd edition)
This is another item that I believe is in error in the 2nd edition of the book. Bugs and I exchanged some math on it and I'm still convinced it's in error:
Quote from the 2nd edition page 25 of the book:
| Quote: | 9. Suppose you have the hand 8h8d, On the turn, the board is 6c8s7d9h. What are the odds of making a full house or better on the river?
11. [this is a continuation of 9. above] Suppose you believe that your opponent will check and call your $6 bet if you do make a full house. Then how much money should be in the pot for you to call, trying to make a full house or quads?
[answer to 11. on page 27] If you are persuaded your opponent will call your $6 bet on the river, that is an extra $6 you plan to win should you improve. You are still a 3.5:1 dog, so you still need $21 total to justify your call. Subtracting the extra $6 you plan to win, the pot only had to contain $15 for you to call on the turn.
Note: All these calculations were done assuming you would throw away your trips on the river if you didn't improve. If you were planning to call a bet if you didn't make your full house, then you are effectively calling $12 ($6 on the turn and $6 on the river). Now the pot has to be offering you better odds to call on the turn. |
The last part is the part I disagree with. Since you should only call on the river if it's +EV this just adds value to the draw that was already +EV. His comment must assume the call on the river is a mistake, but let's assume that we are good enough that the call on the river is +EV.
I can't recommend the book because I have run across many errors in his writiing. Skip it and just invest that time reading ITH.
Last edited by fep on Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Piscivorous
Bamboozler
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 4830
Location: Just being lovable
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| This was the second book I read. I read it right after "Ken Warren Teaches Hold'Em". Hand in hand these two books combined to teach me very well, but as was stated earlier, I started out as a TP-P because of these. |
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