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Viscant
1K Club
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 1032
Location: San Diego, CA
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 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject: Too weak with kings, or good laydown? |
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Hand converter not working for me so I'll post it in long hand.
FullTiltPoker Game #209314918: Table Anthem Club - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:27:32 ET - 2005/09/06
Seat 1: hillaryduff ($173.65)
Seat 2: Brian2323 ($275.35)
Seat 3: dikwad ($152.80)
Seat 4: halvorsen1 ($277.25)
Seat 5: Viscant ($635.50)
Seat 6: Lgleagle ($0), is sitting out
Seat 7: dollarbills ($190.80)
Seat 8: alsos ($263.10), is sitting out
Seat 9: TxRhino ($155)
dollarbills posts the small blind of $1
Viscant: jeez
TxRhino posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Viscant [Ks Kc]
Lgleagle stands up
hillaryduff folds
Brian2323 calls $2
dikwad folds
halvorsen1 folds
Viscant raises to $9
dollarbills folds
TxRhino has 15 seconds left to act
TxRhino folds
alsos has returned
hillaryduff: shes been tilting for a while now
Brian2323 raises to $30
Viscant calls $21
*** FLOP *** [Qd 7c 2s]
Brian2323 bets $60
Viscant folds
Uncalled bet of $60 returned to Brian2323
Brian2323 mucks
Brian2323 wins the pot ($60)
******
I have the big stack on the table and it appears I've been doing a bit of bullying. I just took down 2 big pots (both with legit monster hands but no showdowns occurred). The villain in this hand has less than half my stack but is still almost tied for 2nd largest at the table. I don't have much of a read on him, not many hands. He's at 3 of 4 of my tables and is above buyin on all of them, so all I can assume is that he's a solid player.
My thinking for laying this down:
So preflop he limp re-raised me. At NL$200 it seems like this is almost always AA. I took a flop (probably a mistake) and it came with a Q. The range of hands for even a loose limp re-raise with is probably AA,KK,QQ, AK, possibly JJ. The Q on the flop makes this an easy decision. I'm behind to the most likely hands and with the pot as big as it is already and him 1st to act on all rounds, this will end with him going all in. I'm not willing to commit about 40% of my stack to hoping he has AK or JJ.
Does anyone hang in there with this hand? Does anyone re-raise preflop to see where you stand? In chat he claims to have had TT. I'm not sure I believe that but it made me think a bit. |
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Brian39
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 43
Location: las vegas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Too weak with kings, or good laydown? |
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hang in there? I go all in and collect a nice pot.
| Viscant wrote: | Hand converter not working for me so I'll post it in long hand.
FullTiltPoker Game #209314918: Table Anthem Club - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:27:32 ET - 2005/09/06
Seat 1: hillaryduff ($173.65)
Seat 2: Brian2323 ($275.35)
Seat 3: dikwad ($152.80)
Seat 4: halvorsen1 ($277.25)
Seat 5: Viscant ($635.50)
Seat 6: Lgleagle ($0), is sitting out
Seat 7: dollarbills ($190.80)
Seat 8: alsos ($263.10), is sitting out
Seat 9: TxRhino ($155)
dollarbills posts the small blind of $1
Viscant: jeez
TxRhino posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Viscant [Ks Kc]
Lgleagle stands up
hillaryduff folds
Brian2323 calls $2
dikwad folds
halvorsen1 folds
Viscant raises to $9
dollarbills folds
TxRhino has 15 seconds left to act
TxRhino folds
alsos has returned
hillaryduff: shes been tilting for a while now
Brian2323 raises to $30
Viscant calls $21
*** FLOP *** [Qd 7c 2s]
Brian2323 bets $60
Viscant folds
Uncalled bet of $60 returned to Brian2323
Brian2323 mucks
Brian2323 wins the pot ($60)
******
I have the big stack on the table and it appears I've been doing a bit of bullying. I just took down 2 big pots (both with legit monster hands but no showdowns occurred). The villain in this hand has less than half my stack but is still almost tied for 2nd largest at the table. I don't have much of a read on him, not many hands. He's at 3 of 4 of my tables and is above buyin on all of them, so all I can assume is that he's a solid player.
My thinking for laying this down:
So preflop he limp re-raised me. At NL$200 it seems like this is almost always AA. I took a flop (probably a mistake) and it came with a Q. The range of hands for even a loose limp re-raise with is probably AA,KK,QQ, AK, possibly JJ. The Q on the flop makes this an easy decision. I'm behind to the most likely hands and with the pot as big as it is already and him 1st to act on all rounds, this will end with him going all in. I'm not willing to commit about 40% of my stack to hoping he has AK or JJ.
Does anyone hang in there with this hand? Does anyone re-raise preflop to see where you stand? In chat he claims to have had TT. I'm not sure I believe that but it made me think a bit. |
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Viscant
1K Club
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 1032
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. What hand or hand range do you put him on? I'm far behind to AA and QQ, KK is unlikely since I already have 2 of them, but even still that's just a split.
Do you believe he's making the limp re-raise with AK, AQ, JJ? If so, why?
(Note: I'm not questioning your advice since I'm still a beginner at NL and want to learn as much as I can. I'm just curious as to how you reached your decision) |
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Brian39
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 43
Location: las vegas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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His betting pattern tells me youre ahead and i believe him when he says 10 10. He raised you preflop assuming you have AK or AQ. The 60 bet post flop is him trying to steal the pot with a continuation bet. He saw you didnt reraise his reraise pre flop and is using his aggression to his advantage. It worked.
| Viscant wrote: | Interesting. What hand or hand range do you put him on? I'm far behind to AA and QQ, KK is unlikely since I already have 2 of them, but even still that's just a split.
Do you believe he's making the limp re-raise with AK, AQ, JJ? If so, why?
(Note: I'm not questioning your advice since I'm still a beginner at NL and want to learn as much as I can. I'm just curious as to how you reached your decision) |
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Seadood228
53o
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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I love the way you played the hand. You'd be surprised at how many players are overall losers with AA and KK. I would never go allin there because your reverse implied odds are terrible.. What hand(s) will he call you with?
I like the pf call because if you spike your set you are going to stack him, and in those situations I typically want around 10/1 implied, and it looks like you are around 12/1...
On the flop you choose to fold rather than get involved which is very reasonable. There are a lot of hands he could have that you beat, but being OOP playing a large pot it could cost you an awful lot to find out if your KK is good. There will be better spots to get your money in, especially because it looks pretty deep at this table.
I'm not sure what a reraise preflop will accomplish here. He will probably flat call with AA-22 and possible other hands, so where does that leave you? Also, do you think you can fold to a push if you reraise? You'll be getting mighty fine odds to call, and will have to put him squarely on AA in order to fold.
Last edited by Seadood228 on Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brian39
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 43
Location: las vegas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh one more thing. His $60 bet was a pot size bet. That is screaming to me that he doesnt want a caller. Pot size bets almost always mean please dont call me. |
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Brian39
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 43
Location: las vegas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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this guy is a losing NL player. His words are all i need. You made a mistake not calling, the tells were there. Scared money is losing money. Next subject.
| Seadood228 wrote: | I love the way you played the hand. You'd be surprised at how many players are overall losers with AA and KK. I would never go allin there because your reverse implied odds are terrible.. What hand(s) will he call you with?
I like the pf call because if you spike your set you are going to stack him, and in those situations I typically want around 10/1 implied, and it looks like you are around 12/1...
On the flop you choose to fold rather than get involved which is very reasonable. There are a lot of hands he could have that you beat, but being OOP playing a large pot it could cost you an awful lot to find out if your KK is good. There will be better spots to get your money in, especially because it looks pretty deep at this table.
I'm not sure what a reraise preflop will accomplish here. He will probably flat call with AA-22 and possible other hands, so where does that leave you? Also, do you think you can fold to a push if you reraise? You'll be getting mighty fine odds to call, and will have to put him squarely on AA in order to fold. |
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Seadood228
53o
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | hang in there? I go all in and collect a nice pot. |
And I'm a losing player? So if you move in here, show me the math that makes this profitable. Even if you think the villian will limp/reraise with QQ-JJ and AK (which he won't), it's still a losing play.
When money is deep you are going to have to fold the best hand quite often, espeicially when out of position. The kind of play you are suggesting works in shallow NL games and tourneys, but will get you killed in big bet nl holdem..
Last edited by Seadood228 on Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brian39
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 43
Location: las vegas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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LOL!!! "the math". I eat you fools up.
| Seadood228 wrote: | | Quote: | | hang in there? I go all in and collect a nice pot. |
And I'm a losing player? So if you move in here, show me the math that makes this profitable. Even if you think the villian will call with QQ-JJ and AK (which he won't), it's still a losing play.
When money is deep you are going to have to fold the best hand quite often, espeicially when out of position. The kind of play you are suggesting works in shallow NL games and tourneys, but will get you killed in big bet nl holdem.. |
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niin
ITH Software Programmer
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 4477
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | LOL!!! "the math". I eat you fools up. |
Take this crap to 2+2. It's not acceptable here.
And I can all but guarentee you that Seadood is not a losing player. Deep-stack poker isn't about pushing all-in all the time. That's a quick way to lose your entire stack quite frequently.
He asked you an honest question. What losing hands would he call your all-in with? Try to justify your claims with an actual argument, instead of personal attacks. |
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Seadood228
53o
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | LOL!!! "the math". I eat you fools up. |
Comes from the same guy who wrote:
| Quote: | Hero in BB ($198)
UTG ($415)
UTG+1 ($185)
Hero is dealt  
Hero posts $2, UTG raises to $5.50, UTG+1 raises to $9, folded to Hero who calls, UTG calls.
Flop:   
Pot size $28
| Quote: | | Well, i would have went all in before he had the chance. If youre thinking of calling an all in why not just go all in yourself? Id call, he probably has just one large heart, or possibly a lower set. |
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Sorry I have a hard time beliving that a guy who would open push $198 with top set into a $28 pot would "eat me up"  |
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Brian39
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 43
Location: las vegas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| LOL that would be because youre a clueless internet player. Please come to vegas when youd like to test your skills and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, sit at my table. Oh and ps, you keep mentioning high stakes(lmfao), ummm his game wasnt a high stake game, son. |
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geormiet
2K Club
Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 2511
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think
deep stack = high stakes |
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Seadood228
53o
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 3051
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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This is getting comical now...
| Quote: | | that would be because youre a clueless internet player |
I play about 50/50 live/internet..
| Quote: | | Please come to vegas when youd like to test your skills and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE |
I'm there all the time, and these games are without question MUCH easier than the internet... There is no debating that one there chief.
| Quote: |
Oh and ps, you keep mentioning high stakes(lmfao), ummm his game wasnt a high stake game, son. |
Nobody mentioned high stakes, son. There is a huge difference between big bet holdem and high stakes holdem. I would think someone who claims to be an NL player would be aware of that. It might be because you are used to Vegas Casino NL where the typical buyin is 25BBs... Playing with 100-200BBs is a completely different game and requires adjustments.
Hey I have an idea, instead of attacking one's poker ability, why not give a rational explanation of why pushing with KK in this spot is a winning play. It usually goes over a little better than the "nanny nanny boo boos" you've been spewing in this thread. |
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niin
ITH Software Programmer
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 4477
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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As already pointd out, 'deep stack' doesn't mean 'high stakes'. 'Deep stack' means 'deep stack'. Words mean what they mean, not what they don't mean.
You still haven't explained why you feel pushing this hand is the best play. |
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