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Scully
Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 634
Location: Manchester, UK
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 Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: The age old conundrum of AK |
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This is a theoretical question about AK in a 3 bet pot in 6 maxc.
Scenario 1). Hero is OTB and raises to 4bb with AK. One of the blinds re-raises to 15bb. Hero calls making. Effective stacks are 100bb and neither player is especially loose, aggressive or tight - just your average players with around 22/18 stats. The pot is now 30bb, with each player having 85bb behind giving an SPR of <3.
Scenario 2) As above but hero is in the blinds and raises to 15bb.
Flop comes A94r - are we committed to getting it all in here?
Flop comes AhTh7c - again, are we committed?
As you can probably guess this post has come from me repeatedly getting stacked with AK in 3 bet pots.
Going on PNLH, with such a low SPR surely we have to be happy to get it all in with such a low SPR?? Having said that common thinking is 'don't go broke 100bb deep with 1 pair'.
Thoughts anyone? |
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Damo_1
PauliF Fan Club
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 1037
Location: Playing sets fast
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Flop 1: I'm committed, but a little slowplaying to induce action may be in order. I'll still be looking to felt AK in most circumstances.
Flop 2: Get it in asap, there are too many draws to be messing around. Even the biggest draw (   ) only has a maximum of 11% equity over your hand and running into a set is a cooler.
| Scully wrote: | | Having said that common thinking is 'don't go broke 100bb deep with 1 pair'. |
I think that is much more applicable to limped or (merely) raised pots. TPTK in a three-bet pot is a much stronger hand with shallower stacks. |
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Soultwister
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 428
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Scenario 1). Hero is OTB and raises to 4bb with AK. One of the blinds re-raises to 15bb. Hero calls |
Here I am kinda lost. I see quite some value in calling AK in position, especially vs an aggro player or an ultra-tight nit. Vs a nit, a call here seems pretty standard, vs a more aggro player with a light 3betting range, calling here is generally done for deception. You want villain to know that AK is part of your range for flatting him after he stacks off with AJ on an A high board etc.
If calling here is a standard option for you here, what do you 4bet with? AA/KK and some air? A 22/18 is quite solid in general, and may definitely be 3betting light at times. Because of that, I think it's perfectly fine to add AK into the value-based part of your 4betting range.
My default play would be to 4bet AK here and get a fold/get it in, and it's definitely profitable if you include the folds and the worse hands you get it in against. I rarely flat here, except when villain does not really know me that well, but has seen me flat 3bets in position a few times with somewhat marginal hands, and prob hasn't seen me 4bet yet. Because of that, I may flat AK/AA/KK occasionally.
| Quote: | | Scenario 2) As above but hero is in the blinds and raises to 15bb. |
Yes, as played, on this board with 100BB in a 3bet pot, you should be looking to get your stack in the middle. The question just depends on how. If people setmine in 3bet pots, they lose money anyways, so that should be none of your concern. Paying of a set in these instances is fine.
| Quote: | | Having said that common thinking is 'don't go broke 100bb deep with 1 pair'. |
Like Damo said, there's a huge difference between 3bet pots and raised pots. In 3bet pots 100BB deep, I treat TP like the nuts vs many opponents. And not just TPTK, but also 2nd kicker and 3rd kicker most of the time. But while TPTK hands and sometimes even second pair hands are very strong in 200NL based on how the hand plays out, at 100NL some more pot control lines may be needed at times because a larger amount of setminers/slowplayers. |
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Scully
Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 634
Location: Manchester, UK
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input guys. Having followed Soultwister's advice, here are a couple of hands from tonight's session. Are these played OK are have I misinterpreted something?
Hand 1
Villain 19/19 over 50 or so hands. Not seen him three bet but over such a small sample I can't read much into this
$0.1/$0.2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG golferman74 ($26.86)
UTG+1 jansherKD ($43.86)
CO EmmyXXL ($7.31)
BTN Scully1515 ($20.73)
SB piet2104 ($19.80)
BB drikk26 ($14.52)
Pre-flop: ($0.30, 6 players)
2 folds, EmmyXXL calls $0.20, Scully1515 raises to $1, piet2104 raises to $3.40, 1 fold, EmmyXXL folds, Scully1515 goes all-in $20.73, piet2104 goes all-in $16.40
Flop:    ($42.03, 2 players)
Turn:  ($42.03, 2 players)
River:  ($42.03, 2 players)
Final Pot: $39.93
Scully1515 shows:  
piet2104 shows:  
Scully1515 wins $0.93 ( lost -$19.80 )
piet2104 wins $39 ( won +$19.20 )
EmmyXXL lost -$0.20
Hand 2
Villain is 48/22 over 50 or so hands.
$0.1/$0.2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG Scully1515 ($26.55)
UTG+1 natas1974 ($26.46)
CO BeerAndChicks ($19.70)
BTN uluru1 ($7.78)
SB MrLaLooZe ($7.68)
BB ZzzZzzZzz18 ($20.00)
Pre-flop: ($0.30, 6 players)
Scully1515 raises to $0.70, natas1974 raises to $2.20, 4 folds, Scully1515 goes all-in $26.55, natas1974 goes all-in $24.26
Flop:    ($54.01, 2 players)
Turn:  ($54.01, 2 players)
River:  ($54.01, 2 players)
Final Pot: $52.31
Scully1515 shows: 
natas1974 shows: 
Scully1515 wins $0.09 ( lost -$26.46 )
natas1974 wins $52.22 ( won +$25.76 ) |
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Damo_1
PauliF Fan Club
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 1037
Location: Playing sets fast
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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It really depends on the three-bettor, their position, your image, table flow, far too many things...
Hand 1: If villian is tight I'd call with position, if it's a loose 3-bettor I'd pop this again and let him hang himself on a hand like AQ/AJ. Shoving here will fold out dominated aces and only get calls from big pocket pairs or AK for the chop.
Hand 2: Much trickier, you're deeper and out of position. If villian is tight you could 4-bet small/fold to a raise. If he's looser you could call OOP (which I generally hate) or 4-bet bigger and be getting it in (which I also hate with these stacks and positions). An overbet shove will only accomplish the same as the last hand, folding worse or getting called by pairs that are ahead or dominating. I actually think calling or folding may be best here, even though I dislike both. |
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Fenris78
1K Club
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1567
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, you got Soultwister wrong there. Getting it in preflop with AKo does not mean shoving 100BB over a preflop 3bet. Standard would be to 4bet-call a shove.
Hand 1: 4bet and call a push. Pushing right away over a 3bet is like putting up a neon sign that you have AK.
Hand 2: When I raise UTG and get reraised by UTG+1 I would give him respect for a range that is quite strong. 4bet pushing is really horrible here, as UTG vs UTG+1 situations are different from blind steal situations and you are even 125BB deep. 4betting small and folding to a push is an option but here is one of the few situations where I would prefer a call
Usually I am an advocate of getting AKo allin preflop. But I never push 100BB over a 3bet, but rather 4bet-call to give villain the illusion of fold equity. |
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