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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22108
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: BarryT> pre-flop OOP play |
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There has been some discussion here about two specific limit HE situations. I can't seem to find the prior discussions, but I think I have the gist of them and someone else might dig up the links. I'm interested in your views on both.
1) Some author (Matt Matros, maybe?) held the view that you should absolutely never three bet from the big blind heads-up against a raiser. As best I recall the argument, it was that you reveal too much information about the strength of your hand and that you would be better off to call and check-raise strong hands on the flop. Do you agree? If not, in what situations would you look to three bet from the big blind?
2) Others have extrapolated from the initial discussion that it also does not make sense to cap OOP in a heads-up situation pre-flop when you raise and someone three bets you with position. The reasoning is that you are in essentially the same position as #1. Does this scenario change your opinion? |
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Willem
2K Club
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 2618
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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This is the thread Nside is referring to: link.
And a follow up question: How do you think this concept relates to you suggesting just calling from the BB with a hand like AKo or QQ when there is a raise and several cold callers? (I sincerely remember reading this somewhere but I can't seem to find it. I thought it was in your Advanced Limit Holdem book.) |
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AlamedaMike
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 2042
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Willem wrote: |
And a follow up question: How do you think this concept relates to you suggesting just calling from the BB with a hand like AKo or QQ when there is a raise and several cold callers? (I sincerely remember reading this somewhere but I can't seem to find it. I thought it was in your Advanced Limit Holdem book.) |
I have read before where barryt suggests calling with QQ - Ten commom hold'em errors on cardplayer.
| Quote: | 2. Raising from the blinds with the wrong hands:Many players seem to reach a decision when they look at their hand. They determine, long before the action gets to them, that they have a "raising hand," a "calling hand," or a "folding hand." Not only does this predetermination confuse them when they should fold many hands after raises, but they also make a number of inappropriate raises.
Raises from the big blind in an unraised, multiway pot are particularly inappropriate. Certainly, if you have A-A or K-K, you typically should raise no matter where you are. But after that, things get murky.
If we assume that four or more players have called, raising with unsuited high cards is almost always an error. You are making the pot large in a situation in which your most likely winning hand is one pair. You are creating a situation in which your opponents are getting correct odds to draw against you. And you will be out of position on the next three streets.
If you make this kind of raise, everyone will call. You will then be faced with an unpleasant decision after the flop. If you miss the flop, you will either bet into a field with no pair and slim prospects, or you will check and essentially invite them to bet and knock you out. If you hit the flop, you will be betting into a much larger pot than if you had not raised, giving them reasonable (or perhaps totally correct) odds to try to outdraw you. Plus, if you do get raised, you won't know how to proceed.
I acknowledge that several experienced players and professionals believe that you should raise from the big blind in a multiway pot with A-K offsuit, simply because your hand is so much better than your opponents' average starting hands. I disagree. If there are four or more players, I prefer to keep the pot small, and use the possible element of surprise post-flop to make more money when I do flop my pair.
Once six players are in, there are several hands with which to raise from the blinds, if only to add balance to the times when you raise with A-A or K-K. Raising with a small pair becomes almost a free raise here, as you are getting close to the proper current odds to flop your set. In addition, you will collect the extra bets that people will put in while drawing dead or nearly so because of the size of the pot if you do happen to hit a set. Also, occasional raises with hands like a suited Q-J or J-10 will provide you with the price you will need to draw with plenty of company if you happen to flop a draw.
In both of these cases, not only is your hand well-disguised, you will get a reputation for being an action player while actually making plays that will pay for themselves in the long run. And finally, these hands should be very easy to get away from when the flop misses you. Simply check and fold.
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pokerbear
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 23
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Hi. Sorry for the delay in responding.
First, I do not always agree with Matt, but I rarely three-bet heads-up OOP from the BB.
However, Often there-bet from the big blind.
1 - If I feel that others will fold (limp, limp, button raise to me).
2 - I have a volume hand in a volume pot. (6-6 after 6 players have called an early raise)..
3 - A- A. In limit, this hand is simply too good to mot build the biggest preflop pot possible .
Sorry, there are several other but it tough to be comprehensive without a lot of thought. I may do a column on this to do a more thorough job. My book also covers other cases in the fairly large and comprehensive blind play chapter.
In online play where you can't more than four bets in preflop no matter what, this is somewhat opponent dependent. Against thinking players, I would cap less than half the time. Against maniacs and fools, I just keep putting money in, and they love to chase bigger pots and do not worry much about what you have.
Did I answer them? |
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nsidestrate
Suited's Love Monkey
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 22108
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| pokerbear wrote: | | Did I answer them? |
Does your answer change significantly when not in the blind? In other words if you raise from the CO with AKs and you are three bet by the button, would you ever re-raise? Same answer as for the BB? |
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pokerbear
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 23
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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Hi. Sure. Button raises (at least most of them) are not that powerful. This is situational, but I tend to put in lots of bets with premuim hands.
-barryt |
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