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major
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 397
Location: happy resident in old europe
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 Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: starting hand chart ? |
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Hello,
i play NL SH mostly for fun. Mix it up with limit.
I wanna improve my game.
So i will start with my preflop game.
Is an ABC-starting hand chart available? or anything else?
thx |
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ACE KING PRO
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Wolverhampton, England, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: Re: starting hand chart ? |
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| major wrote: | Hello,
i play NL SH mostly for fun. Mix it up with limit.
I wanna improve my game.
So i will start with my preflop game.
Is an ABC-starting hand chart available? or anything else?
thx |
SH for Short-Handed?
I am including Starting Hand Guides, Charts and Cheat Sheets in my forthcoming Poker book...
Regards,
Ady Miles |
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major
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 397
Location: happy resident in old europe
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: |
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..... 
nothing special(sh), just a guideline....maybe Fullring...... |
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ACE KING PRO
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Wolverhampton, England, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: strategy summary for full and short-handed sit 'n' gos |
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| major wrote: | .....
nothing special(sh), just a guideline....maybe Fullring...... |
Full Table
1. Stick to playing AA, KK, QQ, JJ and AK (suited) aggressively from any position;
2. Play AK (unsuited), AQ (suited), AJ (suited), KQ (suited), 10-10, 9-9 and 8-8 in mid to late position on more passive tables, or only in late position on aggressive tables;
3. Call Suited Aces in mid to late position, but only if you can see the Flop relatively cheaply;
4. Call AQ (unsuited), AJ (unsuited) and KQ (unsuited) and also any remaining Suited cards in late position, but only if you can see the Flop fairly cheaply;
5. Do not call Unsuited Aces Ace 10 or below in any position
6. Fold everything else
Short - Handed
1. Play any Ace or Pocket Pair aggressively from any position; except on Aggressive tables, where you should only play Ace 8 (unsuited) or above from mid to late position or Ace Jack (unsuited) or better from any position
2. Play any suited cards from mid to late position;
3. Play any connectors, except 3-2, but only from late position
Hope this helps!
Much more detail coming in my book...
Regards,
Ady Miles
Last edited by ACE KING PRO on Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AggJedi
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 605
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: strategy summary for full and short-handed sit 'n' gos |
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| ACE KING PRO wrote: | | major wrote: | .....
nothing special(sh), just a guideline....maybe Fullring...... |
Short - Handed
1. Play any Ace or Pocket Pair aggressively from any position, 2. Play any suited cards from mid to late position, 3. Play any connectors, except 3-2, but only from late position
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So let me get this straight, somebody who is new to NL Hold'em you recomend that they play any ace, from any position. And any suited cards at all from MP-LP?
I don't know how to get this point across, but this advice is absolutely horrendous and completely laughable, and if you don't understand why i'm saying this. Than that is even more laughable.
OP, do not listen to this advice.
If you are new to NLHE than I strongly recomend you start out playing full ring. Full ring offers more hands in more positions, so you have more time to noticably learn how to play each position.
I could start to give you advice on hand selection from position and basic strategy about that. But to do that isn't something I feel I could adequatly do in one simple post. I could write an entire book on something like this. Fortunately for you however, somebody already has. Ed Miller puts out a good NLHE book for beginning players. It should have everything you're looking for to really help you out. I'd recomend going to your local barns and noble and picking it up as soon as possible.
If as opposed to just asking for a hand selection chart if you have a more specific question, or a specific hand that you'd like to post we on this forum would able to help you a lot better. |
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ACE KING PRO
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Wolverhampton, England, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: Re: strategy summary for full and short-handed sit 'n' gos |
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| AggJedi wrote: | | ACE KING PRO wrote: | | major wrote: | .....
nothing special(sh), just a guideline....maybe Fullring...... |
Short - Handed
1. Play any Ace or Pocket Pair aggressively from any position, 2. Play any suited cards from mid to late position, 3. Play any connectors, except 3-2, but only from late position
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So let me get this straight, somebody who is new to NL Hold'em you recomend that they play any ace, from any position. And any suited cards at all from MP-LP?
I don't know how to get this point across, but this advice is absolutely horrendous and completely laughable, and if you don't understand why i'm saying this. Than that is even more laughable.
OP, do not listen to this advice. |
Okay, I should've added this qualification to make it clearer...
1. Play any Ace or Pocket Pair aggressively from any position; except on Aggressive tables, where you should only play Ace 8 (unsuited) or above from mid to late position or Ace Jack (unsuited) or better from any position
The advice is very good and this alone will help any player win more ring games and also get better placings in more tournaments
If you don't believe it is good advice, then you need to prove it isn't
I can prove it is so, with respect, how can you also prove it isn't? 
Regards,
Ady Miles |
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TorrMakki
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 50
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I don't think playing hands like A3o from EP is a good as a rule of thumb for someone starting out in 6max. Nor is playing any old suited cards. Speculative hands lose value shorthanded as it is and suited connectors hit infrequently enough to make them a bit of a drain if you don't win some steals with them let alone routinely playing junk like 83s.
For a beginner I'd suggest any pairs any position, the best broadway EP, any broadway LP. Suited aces MP onwards. Some suited kings MP and LP. Suited connectors MP onwards. As a rule open-raise. Don't call signficant raises with easily dominated hands and reraise with very strong ones. But do call raises with suited cons etc if other callers have or will pad the pot enough. Do call raises with pairs if the effective stack is big enough. Mix it up a bit with some suited gappers in the right places and calling with very strong hands if 2-3 way is guaranteed for deception. Steal as much as you can on the button (and cutoff for that matter) and also in the blinds if your blind opponents like to complete or check with weak hands. Be aware of the dynamic - ebb and flow your agro to make it more believable. Do what you can get away with - if they are loose passive then they are letting you play speculative hands earlier. If they are tight-passive then they are letting you steal with weaker hands from earlier. You get the idea.
Continuation bet almost always and make it a 3/4-1 pot. |
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Neilis
1K Club
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1131
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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The OP asked for an ABC hand chart and I'm afraid we're trying to make him into a fish. Ace King Pro... are you serious? Okay I'll give you the full ring one that's not too bad although I'd probably add 'any pair from any position' with qualifiers that I'm not going to go into here.
The short handed advice is horrific.
| Quote: | . Play any Ace or Pocket Pair aggressively from any position; except on Aggressive tables, where you should only play Ace 8 (unsuited) or above from mid to late position or Ace Jack (unsuited) or better from any position
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Okay I like any pocket pair. I raise small pairs up front, but I don't care how passive the game is, telling the guy to play any ace UTG is simply terrible. To illustrate this I actually went to my position stats from my big database filtered for 6-handed play. These stats amounted to about 44k hands and should be a reasonable representation. For the record I'm a solid winner at 4.5 ptbb/100 over this sample.
AKo utg in this sample of hands is a marginal winner.
AQo utg was up in terms of dollars but was a loser in bb terms
AJo utg was almost a 1bb per hand loser.
ATo utg was almost a 1bb per hand loser.
Simply put I don't play worse aces than that utg and hence have no meaningful stats for them, but seriously, telling someone who is probably a reasonably inexperienced player to raise any ace UTG in any type of game at all regardless of whether it's passive or aggressive is just wrong.
| Quote: | | Play any suited cards from mid to late position |
Are you serious? What do you hope to do with 82s in the cutoff? flop a flush draw occasionally? Hold the phone I'm getting out Matt's book. Two suited cards will make a flush by the river 6% of the time apparently. 16-1! It's pretty difficult for 82s to make a playable hand any other way because on an 88x flop you're outkicked most of the time you get action. Sure you might make some money on a 22x flop.. but how often does that happen? It's probably in the book but I couldn't be bothered to look.
Oh look.. more stats... the odds of flopping a flush are 124 to 1. The odds of flopping a flush draw (which you then still have to convert) are 8-1 so we're throwing away out crappy suited cards almost every other time. That is absolutely not going to be profitable.
Sure we can play reasonable suited connectors in late positions because they make straights too but 94s and 82s and Q5s are TRASH and should be folded almost every single time. A skilled post flop player may be able to occasionally play these on the button but they have no place in a hand chart for use by a beginner or intermediate player.
| Quote: | | Play any connectors, except 3-2, but only from late position |
Well I'm kinda tired and over it now but are we really playing 45o in the CO and on the button? What do we do on a KT4 flop? Now we're making our life difficult. What do we do on the river on a 45JT3 board when we get action? We have two pair.. want to bet if it's good or not? My point is that you may be able to eek out a small profit with crummy connectors but in general they are hard to play and simply give potential for a player who has mediocre postflop skills to get themselves in tough spots - and that should be avoided at all costs.
Don't challenge me to 'prove' that your advice is bad. I don't have stats on these hands because I don't play them but in general many hands you're suggesting should be played are extremely marginal even for good players and will only get less experienced players in trouble that they are not prepared for. |
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HeyBert!
1K Club
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 1428
Location: Now residing Down Under
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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OP asks for a beginners starting hand chart for SH which you kindly give advice on AK Pro. Problem is playing some of these hands post-flop starting
out, I believe, will be detrimental to their bankroll. Raising A4o from UTG SH on a passive table does not win enough to make it profitable unless the table is really rocky. Too many players will call you down with a better A.
Axo from EP and the likes of T3s from LP are not long term winning hands IMO. I don't have facts to back that up other than my own hand histories. If you have stats to prove me otherwisethen I'll have a look.....only if I can see them without having to buy a book  |
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ACE KING PRO
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Wolverhampton, England, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| HeyBert! wrote: | OP asks for a beginners starting hand chart for SH which you kindly give advice on AK Pro. Problem is playing some of these hands post-flop starting
out, I believe, will be detrimental to their bankroll. Raising A4o from UTG SH on a passive table does not win enough to make it profitable unless the table is really rocky. Too many players will call you down with a better A.
Axo from EP and the likes of T3s from LP are not long term winning hands IMO. I don't have facts to back that up other than my own hand histories. If you have stats to prove me otherwisethen I'll have a look.....only if I can see them without having to buy a book |
Actually, I do have answers for all of these points. I am not claiming to be a Pro or to know it all (who does?)
Ha ha. I might send you a free copy if you ask nicely then. LOL |
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ACE KING PRO
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Wolverhampton, England, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: re |
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| Neilis wrote: |
The OP asked for an ABC hand chart and I'm afraid we're trying to make him into a fish. Ace King Pro... are you serious? Okay I'll give you the full ring one that's not too bad although I'd probably add 'any pair from any position' with qualifiers that I'm not going to go into here.
The short handed advice is horrific.
| Quote: | . Play any Ace or Pocket Pair aggressively from any position; except on Aggressive tables, where you should only play Ace 8 (unsuited) or above from mid to late position or Ace Jack (unsuited) or better from any position
|
Okay I like any pocket pair. I raise small pairs up front, but I don't care how passive the game is, telling the guy to play any ace UTG is simply terrible. To illustrate this I actually went to my position stats from my big database filtered for 6-handed play. These stats amounted to about 44k hands and should be a reasonable representation. For the record I'm a solid winner at 4.5 ptbb/100 over this sample.
AKo utg in this sample of hands is a marginal winner.
AQo utg was up in terms of dollars but was a loser in bb terms
AJo utg was almost a 1bb per hand loser.
ATo utg was almost a 1bb per hand loser.
Simply put I don't play worse aces than that utg and hence have no meaningful stats for them, but seriously, telling someone who is probably a reasonably inexperienced player to raise any ace UTG in any type of game at all regardless of whether it's passive or aggressive is just wrong.
| Quote: | | Play any suited cards from mid to late position |
Are you serious? What do you hope to do with 82s in the cutoff? flop a flush draw occasionally? Hold the phone I'm getting out Matt's book. Two suited cards will make a flush by the river 6% of the time apparently. 16-1! It's pretty difficult for 82s to make a playable hand any other way because on an 88x flop you're outkicked most of the time you get action. Sure you might make some money on a 22x flop.. but how often does that happen? It's probably in the book but I couldn't be bothered to look.
Oh look.. more stats... the odds of flopping a flush are 124 to 1. The odds of flopping a flush draw (which you then still have to convert) are 8-1 so we're throwing away out crappy suited cards almost every other time. That is absolutely not going to be profitable.
Sure we can play reasonable suited connectors in late positions because they make straights too but 94s and 82s and Q5s are TRASH and should be folded almost every single time. A skilled post flop player may be able to occasionally play these on the button but they have no place in a hand chart for use by a beginner or intermediate player.
| Quote: | | Play any connectors, except 3-2, but only from late position |
Well I'm kinda tired and over it now but are we really playing 45o in the CO and on the button? What do we do on a KT4 flop? Now we're making our life difficult. What do we do on the river on a 45JT3 board when we get action? We have two pair.. want to bet if it's good or not? My point is that you may be able to eek out a small profit with crummy connectors but in general they are hard to play and simply give potential for a player who has mediocre postflop skills to get themselves in tough spots - and that should be avoided at all costs.
Don't challenge me to 'prove' that your advice is bad. I don't have stats on these hands because I don't play them but in general many hands you're suggesting should be played are extremely marginal even for good players and will only get less experienced players in trouble that they are not prepared for. |
Thanks for all of your comments and feedback
It is strange how I am so good at Short-Handed play, yet play these so-called Trash Cards! Even better than at Full Table Poker, though I am working on my weaknesses there
For your information, many of the hands you mention are far from marginal winners for me, because I play them very differently to yourself from most positions, if not all
I will cover all of this in my book
For the time being, I will just say think about how many cards are dealt out of the 52 in the pack and how many Aces are likely to be dealt in the average hand. Then rethink what I am saying and play Ace hands more aggressively unless re-raised significantly
I am working more on my Short-Handed strategies soon, so I accept they may need changing a little here and there
Any comments re my suggested Full Table strategy are also very welcome
Regards,
Ady Miles |
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Neilis
1K Club
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1131
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: |
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AKP the question is not whether or not you can successfully play ace-rag or suited rags. The question is whether it is sensible for a beginner or intermediate player to play them. I saw your post in the blogs section or wherever it is and I believe you're writing a book for beginner and intermediate players correct?
A player who is reasonably new to the game simply does not have the post flop skills required to play these hands. An example -
You raise UTG+1 with A3o and are called in two spots - the button and the big blind. At this point the pot will generally contain about 12x the big blind. Now imagine the flop comes
  
and the big blind checks to you. I assume you bet - after all.. you raised preflop and flopped your ace. 9x the big blind is a reasonable bet size I presume? The button calls. The big blind folds. Your turn card is the
and you're first to act. The pot contains 30x the big blind now which is almost a third of a stack. This is a difficult spot for you. If the button has any ace you're absolutely crushed - but he might have a flush draw. Or a jack. You beat those. He might have a set of sixes and you're drawing dead.
Is that a spot you think a beginner can possibly be profitable in? |
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Tempest
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Thanks for all of your comments and feedback
It is strange how I am so good at Short-Handed play, yet play these so-called Trash Cards! Even better than at Full Table Poker, though I am working on my weaknesses there
For your information, many of the hands you mention are far from marginal winners for me, because I play them very differently to yourself from most positions, if not all
I will cover all of this in my book
For the time being, I will just say think about how many cards are dealt out of the 52 in the pack and how many Aces are likely to be dealt in the average hand. Then rethink what I am saying and play Ace hands more aggressively unless re-raised significantly
I am working more on my Short-Handed strategies soon, so I accept they may need changing a little here and there
Any comments re my suggested Full Table strategy are also very welcome
Regards,
|
This advice is just wrong. Neilis' example with the A3o is perfect for showing why. Taking bad hands out of position only works if you are VERY good and your opponents very bad. The difference in skill between you and your opponents would have to be extremely large to justify this. |
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Suited_Jock
ITH Heart Throb
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 3010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Neilis wrote: | AKP the question is not whether or not you can successfully play ace-rag or suited rags. The question is whether it is sensible for a beginner or intermediate player to play them. I saw your post in the blogs section or wherever it is and I believe you're writing a book for beginner and intermediate players correct?
A player who is reasonably new to the game simply does not have the post flop skills required to play these hands. An example -
You raise UTG+1 with A3o and are called in two spots - the button and the big blind. At this point the pot will generally contain about 12x the big blind. Now imagine the flop comes
and the big blind checks to you. I assume you bet - after all.. you raised preflop and flopped your ace. 9x the big blind is a reasonable bet size I presume? The button calls. The big blind folds. Your turn card is the
and you're first to act. The pot contains 30x the big blind now which is almost a third of a stack. This is a difficult spot for you. If the button has any ace you're absolutely crushed - but he might have a flush draw. Or a jack. You beat those. He might have a set of sixes and you're drawing dead.
Is that a spot you think a beginner can possibly be profitable in? |
Neil is teh winnar!
nice post sir.. |
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bpgui
2K Club
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 2380
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| This thread makes me laugh. |
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